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Hutton: what do you think?

141 replies

OldieMum · 28/01/2004 20:59

I am getting cynical in my old age, but even I didn't expect Hutton to exonerate everyone in the Government for everything they did over the dossier and David Kelly and to blame the BBC for what they did at every stage. What do other people think? And who leaked it to the Sun?

OP posts:
sis · 30/01/2004 10:30

Bloss, I think that if the Government had used 'removal of evil dictator' as the reason for going to war, it would have found it difficult if not impossible to answer questions about why go to war against Iraq and not Saudi Arabia

Quercus · 30/01/2004 11:08

Hello everyone. I joined up here prompted by my wife to add a few comments.

jimjams - no, the U.S. used WMD combined with a wholly fictituous link to Al Queda as their justification for going in.

Bloss - I have been sad enough to read portions of the report and have to say that the majority of people are critical not of the report itself, but of the findings of Lord Hutton.

As has been pointed out, Lord Hutton's remit was very limited and although he has kept to the facts throughout the report, he has made conclusions based upon those findings that smack of bias because in almost every case he has condemned the BBC for their failings but exonerated the government and the MoD for theirs.

Here are some facts from the report in summary.- -Dr. Kelly as a weapons expert had input into sections of the dossier and knew of its contents.

  • Dr. Kelly interacted with other groups of weapons experts (including Dr. Jones) and knew that they had misgivings about aspects of the dossier. Those misgivings included questioning the "45 minute" statement on the basis that:
  1. It was a from single (reputable) source but probably he had been given the info. from another source.
  2. It confused chemical and biological weapons - the two being very different in threat and preparation required.
  3. There was no corroborating evidence, such as factories producing these weapons, storage areas, etc. to support the claim.
  • The dossier was an accurate reflection of all intelligence gained. Most contributors were happy with what was written there.

  • The dossier used cautious language to reflect the uncertainty of the data, such as Iraq may have this or that could indicate a source for weapons, (etc.)
    However, Tony Blair wrote an executive summary of the dossier as an introduction to it, that removed the uncertainty and claimed Iraq was a threat, which effectively exaggerated the threat without changing the contents of the dossier. It was this executive summary that he used as the basis for his speeches.

  • The Intelligence community were unhappy with this and memos were sent to the Joint Intelligence Committee (JIC) saying they agreed with the dossier but felt the summary was too strong.

  • In contrast, Alistair Campbell sent the JIC memos saying the summary was fine but the dossier sounded too weak and asked for the vague language to be removed.

  • In many cases the dossier was amended as per Alistair Campbell's wishes, but where some suggestions (such as saying they had found a source for nuclear material) were simply untrue the JIC refused to change it.

  • It was this "misrepresentation" of the intelligence that prompted Dr. Kelly to go to the media.

Remember that the government portrayed the events as being them responding to a real and immediate thread as shown by the intelligence dossier, whereas in fact the evidence in the Hutton report makes it clear that the truth was very different - they were changing the emphasis (but not the core data) of the intelligence to create the impression of a greater threat as justification for their eventual aim of war.

  • Alistair Campbell attended (and indeed chaired) some of the JIC meetings, which Hutton acknowledges was wrong and should be stopped. But he hasn't criticised the government for it.
  • In initial interviews with Dr. Kelly the MOD stated that his dealings with the press were unauthorised and he could face disciplinary action.
  • The MoD contrived to make his name available to the press by confirming it if they were asked.
  • They did this without warning or consulting with Dr. Kelly.
  • Dr. Kelly (it is believed) was of the opinion that his career and reputation were in tatters and that this is probably why he committed suicide.
  • And yet, Hutton says although things could have been handled differently, the MOD treated D. Kelly "fairly". Did they?

Nobody (least of all me) thinks the BBC were blameless - the chairman was right to resign and Andrew Gilligan should be sacked for bringing the BBC into disrepute and as a lesson for journalists not to make claims they cannot substantiate, but Greg Dyke should not have resigned and it is simply unbelievable that despite the damning evidence given to Hutton, the Government and MOD came away completely cleared of any wrong-doing.

Remember too, that an unprovoked act of aggression against a sovereign state is against international law. That is what Tony Blair and George Bush did.
And now they are finally admitting that there are no WMD - well of course not, but that was pretty much known before they attacked. It was a smokescreen, nothing more.
According to Paul O'Neill (George W. Bush's former Treasury Secretary), from the moment he took office Bush intended to invade Iraq and was desperate to find the right excuse to enable him to do so.

Sorry for the long post and thanks for reading.
waves

suedonim · 30/01/2004 12:07

Bloss, I don't think anyone has or would accuse Hutton of lying. It's simply that he appears to have seen what he wanted to see and has ignored the things he didn't like.

I believe the public's cynicism at the Hutton report is a matter of the govt reaping what it (and others) have sown in terms of 'spinning'. Sad as that maybe, they have only themselves to blame.

SueW, I've read one of Simpson's books (can't recall which one, either!) and it is fascinating to read about the machinations behind the scenes. Martin Bell's book also lifts the lid on these things. And for a jaw-dropping book on spin in govt, try Andrew Rawnsley's book "Servants of the People."

katierocket · 30/01/2004 12:17

sorry, not had time to read all posts but just wanted to say that the whole 'whitewash' reaction in the media to this really makes me laugh.

when Lord Hutton was first appointed they all reported that he was highly respected in his field, bound to ensure a thorough investigation, would not leave any stones unturned and now, because it doesn't fit with how people supposed it would turn out - there are accusations of a whitewash and a cover up.

Could it just be possible that he did his job (within the remits of the investigation) and his finding are correct? Or is that not satisfying for the conspiracy theorists out there

katierocket · 30/01/2004 12:18

also - think Zebra's post sums it up perfectly

zebra · 30/01/2004 12:30

Sorry I upset you, KS. I was replying more to everybody else, not to you particularly.
I remember hearing Gilligan's report go out live, and it's been pointed out that the Today Programme foolishly did not bill it as their lead item that day, didn't even realise what a big story it was. I think a lot of heads should have rolled at the Today Programme, but not Greg Dyke's. One nice thing, is that now that Dyke's resigned, of course, he can say what he likes about Alistair Campbell!

bossykate · 30/01/2004 12:31

quercus, thanks for that lucid summary. whose dh are you?

Nicksie · 30/01/2004 12:36

Message withdrawn

katierocket · 30/01/2004 12:42

sure nicksie - not disagreeing per se - Believe me I'm not waving the flag in support of Blair it's more that I get sick of this country's media (the BBC included). Never let the truth get in the way of a good headline. It makes a more interesting story that it's a whitewash. The fact that a journalist can make accusations like the ones Andrew Gillighan made on national radio without substantiated evidence is bloody disgraceful. I actually don't think Dyke should have gone but I do think that Gillighans immediate bosses and head of news should be called to account.

lazyeye · 30/01/2004 12:43

I must admit, on the way the 'outed' Kelly alone, the govt deserve at least some criticism. That was ridiculous. Agree Hutton isn't about if we should have gone to war, but it is about whether we can trust the govt and I'm not now sure we can. Also think the future of true investigative jnlsm at least where the govt is concerened, is very much under threat. What are we left with - bloody 'Tonight with Trevor McDonut?'

beetroot · 30/01/2004 12:46

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

zebra · 30/01/2004 12:56

Hutton went into a lot of detail about why the MoD/Govt. were justified in deciding they would give out Kelly's name if a journalist suggested it, because any other response was going to look like "cover-up" on Govt/MoD's part. I don't think Hutton brushed over that point, at all. Let's not forget, Kelly was flagrantly violating conditions of his employment by giving unauthorised briefings to journalists; Kelly put the govt. in an awkward position in their duty of care as his employer, not the other way 'round.

dinosaur · 30/01/2004 13:08

Some really good posts on here.

Doesn't anyone else think that Hutton seemed to have an unrealistic view of how the BBC should operate? He seems to be assuming that the BBC should rigorously verify everything that every reporter says in advance - surely that's just not realistic?

Nicksie · 30/01/2004 13:11

Message withdrawn

katierocket · 30/01/2004 13:13

but dinosaur - do you not think that an organisation with as much influential 'reach' as the BBC to absolutely ensure that journalists are working to the highest possible standards especially when making extremely serious allegations?

zebra · 30/01/2004 13:14

Listen to Radio 4, World at One... they were pointing out inconsistencies in Campbell's testimony to Foreign Affairs Committee & Hutton.

dinosaur · 30/01/2004 13:25

sure - but is it realistic that every reporter's script should be pre-vetted and approved by editors? Anyone out there work in broadcast journalism - what do you think?

zebra · 30/01/2004 13:38

I guess the thing was, this wasn't just any story, it was a big one. Someone should have figured out how serious the allegations were, that they could be construed as libelous. Honestly, Gilligan's report was sandwiched between several other bits and pieces of news, The Today programme didn't realise how serious it was. Also, the BBC really stood by Gilligan publicly, even though several editors/supervisors had grave reservations about Gilligan's report and there are internal memos documenting how these individuals felt that it wasn't a reliable piece of journalism. These reservations were (I think?) all expressed after the broadcast, but BBC still had a chance to back down with some face.

dinosaur · 30/01/2004 13:41

Zebra - agree that BBC can be criticised for its actions after the event - but that's a slightly different issue.

donnie · 30/01/2004 13:45

I agree that there are questions over the existence of WMDs ( how I hate these naff little acronyms) but I am amazed that nobody here seems at all worried that Andrew Gilligan's report - and don't forget it is his report which ultimately led Dr Kelly to take his life - was found to be inaccurate and the claims on it without foundation. The BBC have openly admitted allowing the story to run without checking its veracity. Gilligan has been in trouble before for exactly this - not bothering to check facts or verify sources. That bothers me a lot. To put it simply, Gilligan's so called claim that Dr Kelly said the '45 minute idea was not true'was found itself to be untrue. And how convenient that he had to tell Lord Hutton he had 'lost his notes'from the first meeting with Dr Kelly, in which he alleges that claim was made. HE is the real arse here.To say he is a good reporter is risible ad also ridiculous. Unless you like that sort of reportage .

dinosaur · 30/01/2004 13:51

Condoleeze Rice has now admitted for the first time that Saddam Hussein may never have held stocks of chemical, nuclear or biological weapons.

So will we get a similar admission from our own Government...?

donnie · 30/01/2004 13:58

incorrect dinosaur, she has said the existence AT THE TIME OF INVASION of WMDs in being questioned. How do you think those Kurds in around 100 villages had their heads and insides corroded until they resembled piles of jelly? um, chemical weapons perhaps?

aloha · 30/01/2004 14:08

I still don't see what was wrong with Gilligan's report.
He said the 45 minute claim was known to be false. I believe that to be true. It certainly was a false claim, and if they didn't 'know' it to be false, they should have done. And they certainly shouldn't have been bigging it up in the way they did.
He said the intelligence community was uneasy abotu the way the report was compiled and 'edited' - That was also true.
He said the document was 'sexed up'. This was also true.
I think these were issues of vital important. I think I had the right to hear them.
I think Kelly was right to tell the truth.
I think Campbell is a deeply dangerous man who should NEVER have chaired those meetings and had the right to change the whole sense of the document as he did.
How can you compare the seriousness of sloppy editorial control of a single news report with the sloppy lack of control of preparations to go to war. A war which has cost and will go on costing us billions and which has no end in sight despite the huge numbers of people killed and injured.
Law Lords have always favoured the establishment. Judges always used to refuse the police were capable of lying.It seems at least one judge has transferred his blind faith from the police to the government.
Campbell is a proven liar on other issues. I dont' think his essential personality has changed.
I feel very passionate about this because I believe this government is profoundly anti-democratic and this is one step further to gaining political control of the BBC - a dream for the likes of Bliar and Campbell.

bossykate · 30/01/2004 14:11

i agree aloha.

donnie · 30/01/2004 14:16

what is wrong with Gilligan's report is that it lied about what David Kelly said. I am not talking about the Government's Dossier on Iraq's military capability, I am talking about Andrew Gilligan's provenly inaccurate and misleading piece which ran at 6.07 am on Radio 4.They are completely different things. Andrew Gilligan had no basis to say that Dr Kelly rubbished the '45 minute claim'.The BBC admits it failed to check the veracity of the story.How many other ways do you need to have this explained ?Gilligan is as bad as Kelvin Mackenzie insofar as it appears he will run any old unproven crap if it makes good copy.