Toby Young - women don't want most childcare either

[Xenia]

Toby Young in today's Sunday Telegraph magazine Stella argues men do not want even more boring mindless childcare. Well nor do women. So the answer is have good careers as women and then you can avoid that dullness. It is not a gender issue. Clearing up sick is as boring for women as men. Lower earners may well be shunted into that dull stuff and to keep the higher earner man they have to do it but Mr Young needs to know plenty of women don't want to do more childcare either. I always thought two hours a day was pretty good including weekends. Too much more and you'd rather be doing other things.

[Portofino]

Well quite.

[Portofino]

It pisses me off tbh. I have a good career, have worked hard, married a man who does his share. We have a nice family life as a result. I don't have money to pay even one lot of school fees, though I could do it if really wanted to and didn't disagree with the idea in principle. Our family income is in the top 10% of earners and I am not flush and popping off the Maldives on a regular basis. I consider myself extremely fortunate. Who ARE these families that Xenia speaks of? Where are these jobs that give you sufficient spare cash to spend 100k + per year on school fees?

[VelvetSpoon]

Portofino I agree completely. I have a good career, have always worked full time (other than maternity leave) and I couldn't afford school fees either. Admittedly I am a lone parent and get no money from my Ex, but even when we were together I think the best we might have managed was the cheapest private school, and only then by selling our house and living somewhere half the size on a diet of Smartprice food

I'm a lawyer and even a lot of the partners in firms where I've worked don't privately educate their children - those that do only have 1 child. The only other people I know who have children in private schools are either in the forces (so entitled to a discount on the cost) or have long established family trust type arrangements set up by previous generations to cover the fees...

[TheBookofRuth]

You're actually a wee bit barking, aren't you Xenia?

[cazboldy]

I just don't get why someone would have any dc let alone 4/5 if they never wanted to look after them/spend time with them

[ouryve]

Quite, cazboldy

Most people I know with large families actually like being around their kids.

[Portofino]

I have one child. She is the light if my life. I figure if you have 5 it is because you REALLY love kids and enjoy being with them, otherwise what is the point?

[Portofino]

Good question actually Xenia. I can see accident/biological urges as a normal thing. But you had 5 children and are positively proud of your minimal input. Why 5 then?

[exoticfruits]

Just to remind you, Xenia, of the quote you gave us last week-it had the really important point:

'Maybe peace could reign between full time working mothers and those who stay at home if we recognised that we are different but equal beasts'.

(I kept the quote-I know it would come in handy)

I can fully understand that some women find childcare boring and their career fascinating-I just wish that it could be understood the other way around-bringing up my own children was way more important to me than any career-and a great deal more interesting to me than any that involve working in an office in London.(something I would would only do like a prison sentence).

We are all different.

You can pick and choose what is written today. The Sunday Times has it the opposite way today-if they have intelligent, loving parents.

I think people ought to stop reading all these reports and do what suits them-if they are lucky enough to afford it.

[tribpot]

Just to put the other side of this, I don't think anyone would be criticising Xenia's input into her children's lives if she were male. I only mention this for balance - Xenia's dismissive attitude towards SAHMs, the poor and - well, nearly everyone else does not actually deserve defending (nor I imagine does she care if anyone does!) but nevertheless.

[exoticfruits]

Lots of men would love to have more time looking after their DCs-lots do stay at home and do the child care. It is up to the couple. I can't see any point in my DH staying at home, when he would hate it, and me going to work hating every moment away just to suit people like Xenia!

[exoticfruits]

I was incredibly lucky to be able to stay at home when mine were small-it gave me more than money can possibly buy. I loved it.

[exoticfruits]

It is only dull and boring if you make it that way.

[exoticfruits]

It does rather ask the question of why bother to have children anyway-they are optional!

[exoticfruits]

To have 5 if you don't like more than 2 hours a day and weekends seems rather odd-if you had just one or two you would get the dull bits over much sooner.

[wannabedomesticgoddess]

DP and I will share childcare once I get a job. And not just because of the money it will save. He has always been concerned about missing their early years.

Its fair enough if people dont enjoy being at home as much as other things. Just dont expect every adult to feel the same.

[exoticfruits]

Just dont expect every adult to feel the same.

The only point. Do what suits you as a couple and there is no need for others to be judgemental. I have friends who have stayed at home, friends who have worked part time, friends who have always worked full time, friends who have swapped roles and the man stayed at home. It doesn't make you a better parent whichever you do. They are all good parents. Just do what suits you and don't tell others what they ought to do or what they should do.

[TheBookofRuth]

To be fair, maybe Xenia's kids ARE really boring? They can't all be as clever and interesting as mine, after all

[Xenia]

Gosh the sexism on the thread. Perfectly all right if you have a penis to want a large family and see them for a few hours a day but as soon as you're female it's some kind of mortal sin to want reasonable not excessive amounts of time with them. Weird. Sexist to the core.

[cazboldy]

no Xenia I think men that want/have lots of dc and don't want to see them/ spend decent time with them are rather odd too!

[ohforfoxsake]

Oh do fuck off Xenia. And you can take your condescending "real women" jibe with you.

You are at the heart of the sexism on this thread. You should be ashamed of yourself, looking down on other people and the choices they make.

[wannabedomesticgoddess]

Who said it was alright for men to have DC and only want to spend 2 hours a day with them?

I think if thats how a person feels about children they shouldnt have any. Let alone 5.

[lljkk]

One of your Best Threads Ever, Xenia. I think maybe Xenia deserves her own classics section.

[dogsandcats]

Did you have lots of children so that you would have lots of people to love you?

[Thingiebob]

Xenia. You genuinely don't seem to understand the basic principles of 'feminism,' or 'sexism' for that matter.