Gove says lengthen school days and shorten long summer holiday

[juneau]

Here: www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-22202694

I think it's a great idea and I'm sure working parents will welcome it. I also think it's bollocks that teachers need the six week summer break to recharge their batteries. Do they work harder or longer hours than other workers who only get four or five weeks a year then?

Having just endured a bored DS1 over the Easter holidays I think any break of more than two weeks is actually pretty dull for kids and I'm sure poorer kids really suffer from lack of stimulation and/or money to do stuff.

I wouldn't want this unless children were having fun activities in the last two hours or so. My son is autistic and the school day is quite long enough for him. I am also a school Governor and see teachers still in the school at 9pm having got there before 8am.....I am not suggesting that teachers work harder than anyone else but let nobody think this is an easy job. So if there is a longer school day I would not envisage teachers having much to do with ay activities as they have enough to di already.

But, and I really must go to work, the childcare 'problem' is caused by having 13 weeks of holiday

You're fixing the symptom not the cause

If the long holidays originally were to fit around the working farmers, then it's right it should reflect society today. I do t send my kids to work in the holidays - and that's what the summer break was meant for

As an aside, we maybe need to separate out what me mean by children- are we lumping 4 and 18 year olds in together here?

A 4 year old's school day should be 9-1; a 15 year old's could very easily be 8.30 to 4pm, if not 9-5pm, imo.

As for 'the period 5 hell'- well, how about if you weren't trying to cram all that academia, back to back, in such short hours? What about if there was a good 1- 1/12 for lunch (my DC's school has 30 mins!)? What if you could intersperse academia with sport? Or even a brisk walk around the school field?? Wouldn't longer hours allow you to balance your teaching day better? With a 1 1/2 hour break, could teachers not spend an hour at lunch time doing marking etc so they're not taking so much home? (in common with most HCP I get half an hour's guaranteed break in a 9-5.45pm day, that's the norm)

It really boils down to what he expects the children to be doing in these extra hours. We already out on homework clubs and sports that run till 5-6... Does he want to make that compulsory for all or is he planning that we run 7 lesson days? I'm not sure how teaching science between 4-5 when the kids are even more shattered and miserable is beneficial for anyone.

If we are just running sports clubs and/or fun activities, well that's a massive waste of an expensive resource.

Jake -no one is imagining 'teaching is easy' but the fact is, it isn't really that much harder than many other people's jobs.

And yes, like everyone, I know teachers personally. I know a few who do work late but there is always someone at home for the DC, or they are at that younger, keener stage where they not only work longer but want to be seen to be working longer. Just like everyone else trying to establish themselves in their career. I also know teachers who are never home any later than 4 pm. Two live on my road. Best of luck to them if they can bring work home (though both tell me they don't always have to!).

I wonder if the academy-isation of schools will greatly change teachers T&C?

The reason for short lunch breaks is that the majority of fights break out in these times. It is a difficult time for many schools and why break times are also kept short.

at taking my year 11s for a brisk walk.

Girl define 'fun' as in 'fun activities', which you see as a waste of resource. My older DS would consider an electronics club or Raspberry Pi club to be 'fun'. My younger DS would relish the fun of a carpentry club. An artistic or musical child would consider a well-run art club to be fun or the school orchestra to be fun.

Can't see how that'd 'waste resources'.

You are right Erebus, running clubs like that would be very beneficial, which is why schools do and they are not a waste of time,

What I was talking about is maths teachers having to supervise a brisk walk, for example.

As a former (thankfully recently escaped!) teacher, I cut Michael Gove more slack than many of my colleagues. Based on this latest idea, though, I hereby belatedly announce that Gove is an idiot.

The proposal appears to be based not on children?s wellbeing or even their educational needs, but on convenience to working parents, and the supposed need for Britain to compete with East Asian countries for that all-important bit of extra GDP.

Our holidays are already shorter than most of Europe, the US and Canada; in many cases our school day is longer. I used to teach in Year 1, and would defy anyone to keep a class of five and six year olds alert, settled and entertained much beyond 3.30pm. Some of mine were falling asleep on the carpet by the end of the day (and not because I was boring them!). What about disaffected fifteen-year-olds who don?t want to be in school as it is, let alone until 5pm? Quantity of education is not the same as quality.

I?ve done a variety of jobs in the private sector as well as teaching, and have never worked harder than I did as a teacher. It isn't just the working hours (mine were about 8.30am-6pm in school, then a couple more hours each evening and four or five hours on Sunday afternoon/evening), but also the sheer physicality of the job and the emotional toll of assuming responsibility for the welfare of thirty children. Totally agree with Hester about the holidays - the first two weeks are invariably spent being ill/burnt out; the last two weeks were mainly spent either in school or planning/cutting things out/laminating at home.

As a rule (and I realise I?m generalising here) the countries that Gove insists on comparing us to are culturally more conformist than the UK. I?m assuming, then, that in order to keep pupils in line throughout the longer school day/year he also wants Asian-style formal learning and Asian-style hardline discipline, without the current creative aspects that UK schools actually do very well. I'm increasingly getting the impression that Gove actively dislikes children.

This isn?t really about children or parents; it?s about economics, pure and simple, and I sincerely hope it?s never implemented. The proposal just turns schools into glorified childcare, farming out children as early, and for as long, as possible. Interesting, incidentally, that the proposed changes were reported on the same day as a dramatic fall in the number of SAHMs ? I suspect the two stories are part of the same Grand Plan.

There?s an argument for looking at how the school holidays are organised and maybe reconfiguring them slightly, but that?s it. I fear that teaching as a profession is going to become more and more unattractive over the next few years. Seems like I got out at the right time!

Girl another local comp near me got a new HT about 4 years ago. She specifically lengthened the school day by increasing the lunch break. She said that 'part of educating our young people is to help them learn how to manage their time effectively and productively when it isn't being rigidly structured in the classroom situation'. They offer loads of clubs, have banned leaving the school grounds, and expect every DC to take part in at least 2 lunchtime clubs a week.

No fights there! In fact, to me, it's the sign of a school in difficulties, one that maybe isn't managing behaviour effectively if breaks are kept short 'to avoid fights'.

And the point is, your Y11's shouldn't need to be given 'let of steam time' they're practically adult, fgs! If they're suffering the period 5 hell, maybe they need to up their game and be shown what 16 year olds in the far east are expected to do!

I work in a school with 1500 pupils, some of who are from the most deprived areas in our county.

I am beginning to suspect that you have never experienced teenagers from this type of background.

I think it is a crazy idea. Firstly, children really cannot concentrate for that long. School is not work and acquiring new knowledge takes continual effort. If you want to lengthen school days, you need to be adding in more sport, music etc, not more academic work. And, as someone who attended private school (prior to Cambridge Uni), there is plenty of time in a traditional school year to accomplish a high level of education.

And, as someone who is considering teaching as a second career (after finance), the pay is really poor. If you want teachers with good degrees from good unis, you cannot expect them to work the same year as an office worker on pay from £25-60k. It is ridiculous. The current package, which is supportive of family life, means bright people choose it because they both want to teach and want to spend time with their families. Take that away and a major plank of the attraction disappears. And then what kind of teachers will you be left with?

I watched it news @10 yesterday said was modelled on asia.

But tiger countries are much pushier, do longer hours, greater demands, really difficult exams.

Differnt cultures vary in terms of education with white working class boys being bottom of pile where as immigrant families see education as leg up and support it more.

I did read article in foodbank that school holidays are hard for disadvantaged kids as they dont have free school meals.

I must admit end of summer term my dd was year 1 was very tired and tearful and term 1 of year 2 was long one about 8 weeks and she was tired.

Her old school had breckfast club limited in numbers 8-8.55 £2.50 per session but know a working parents who couldent get a place this term and is not happy and some say 8am too late.

The afterschool club is run on site but 3.15-5.30-too early for them as others schools we looked at ended at 6 and was £7.50 so £10 a day for both £200 a month on childcare add school dinners £40 a month if have 2 or more kids gets very pricey.

Dds current school has quite a few after school clubs free or cheap most until 4.15 unless outside provider but they not reliable for working parent some weather dependent, not in 1st week of term in fact thought she had libary club 2nd week back but that does not start until next week, breckfast clubs slightly cheaper at £2.

But I dont think all schools offer enough provision to be honest.

old school did holiday club 80 per week outside provider for just 1 week.

I would like to governement legistlate to stop parents being ripped off in school holidays as this would improve absence and mean more choose to go away.

A homework club sounds good for disadvantaged kids whos parents dont support or cant with homework.

My ex went private school they did sports on sat morning and he loved it but that was seniors.

Private schools here do have longer holidays some slightly longer days but most of it is after school clubs extra curricular art, music and sport.

A few working parents here chose prep as more working parent freindly think has normal pickup 3.30, mid pickup 4.30 and last pickup 6pm.

I guess private small classes the teachings much more concentrated so they dont need as long.

I think some reforms needed maybe extra week may, feb and may.I think more flexible starting school ages.

How do europe do it? dont they have kindergarten until age 7?

I think childcare is pricey and they dont support enough.

The new voucher scheme only for age 5 and under old one could be used upto age 12 for school and holiday clubs.

"The proposal appears to be based not on children?s well-being or even their educational needs, but on convenience to working parents, and the supposed need for Britain to compete with East Asian countries for that all-important bit of extra GDP"- OK, what if their well-being as adults is based on their earning capacity, for instance? And how can you be sure that 'working parents' only support longer days because of CC issues, rather than because they feel their DC could be getting more out of their school experience?

"Our holidays are already shorter than most of Europe, the US and Canada; in many cases our school day is longer".

I used to work in Germany. The primary schoolers did 8-2pm, the secondary, 8-4pm (Bavaria, 1980). Most the mums were SAHM. And culturally, DC were channelled into their futures far earlier and resolutely than we dare, 14 year old doing apprenticeships etc. Which is why Germany is recovering from the crash sooner than the rest of us. And culturally, Germans do have a far stronger work ethic than us!

"I used to teach in Year 1, and would defy anyone to keep a class of five and six year olds alert...much beyond 3.30pm. Some of mine were falling asleep on the carpet by the end of the day...." Who's saying a 5 year old should do 9-5? Did I miss that? "What about disaffected fifteen-year-olds who don?t want to be in school as it is, let alone until 5pm?"- they should be at an apprenticeship school/technical college.

"I?ve done a variety of jobs in the private sector as well as teaching, and have never worked harder than I did as a teacher." - see what I said above. Yes, of course there are teachers who 'work long hours' but so do the vast majority of the rest of us these days! Seriously! But we get 4 or 5 weeks A/L, they get 13.

"...the countries that Gove insists on comparing us to are culturally more conformist than the UK. I?m assuming, ... he also wants Asian-style formal learning and Asian-style hardline discipline, without the current creative aspects that UK schools actually do very well." I would readily grant you that Britain does well in the creative arts (though I have always believed that the engineers shall inherit the (post-oil) earth!) but actually, we don't each 'art' that well, do we? Many of our greatest artists seems to have drifted into art college, if they received any formal artistic training at all, because they'd failed to get into anything else. Art isn't taken that seriously in English schools.

"This isn?t really about children or parents; it?s about economics, pure and simple, and I sincerely hope it?s never implemented". Maybe that's true. Maybe this is about making sure our DC can compete in a globalised world and don't turn into the factory drones that supply the demands of the new world order."The proposal just turns schools into glorified childcare, farming out children as early, and for as long, as possible". Once again, that assumption that we only want 'longer school hours' to save our purses rather that to better prepare our DC for the next century.

"There?s an argument for looking at how the school holidays are organised and maybe reconfiguring them slightly, but that?s it". define 'slightly'. How about 4 or 5 same-length terms and equal length holidays?

"I fear that teaching as a profession is going to become more and more unattractive over the next few years". Name me 'an attractive profession' these days which hasn't got the dogs of harsh economic reality baying at its door.

If these proposals are implemented, we can sit back and watch the education system haemorrhage teachers. Already very few make it to retirement age without have to go on long-term sick leave in their 50s. I know hardly any teachers who've held out as teachers to their proper retirement, although one notable exception is now 68 and has run his own show for 30+ years.

God no! They are in school long enough and then there is the dreaded homework eating into out of school time.I like spending time with the dds and missed them after the Easter hols.They never complain of being bored.

I think this is another example of Gove using children to make a political point. This might well win him votes with working parents but I think it will be terrible for children and have a bad effect on education.

Watching discussion on this on The Wright Stuff.

What about this: many on this thread are saying the extra hours should be spent on sports, supervised study (it's not homework if you do it in school) and creative activities - rather than more maths and english. And then, we are told the ones who object to this proposal are teachers, just thinking of themselves. But why would teachers object, since obviously a fully qualified teacher would not be the one asked to take the running club etc? There is not enough info on what is actually meant, and so we argue at cross purposes.
I imagine Gove does mean for teachers to do actual lessons, for longer (and possibly unpaid). I thank the lord he has nothing to do with Scotland, both for my job and my children.

Duchesse- I'd ask 'haemorrhage'- into what? Where would they go, all these disillusioned teachers?

I am not for a second suggesting teachers would be unemployable outside of the educational environment- though, as in all professions, some would; I am just asking what sort of jobs they'd waltz into, given the unemployment figures and graduates who'd work for minimum wage just to get a job;

"And, as someone who is considering teaching as a second career (after finance), the pay is really poor. If you want teachers with good degrees from good unis, you cannot expect them to work the same year as an office worker on pay from £25-60k. It is ridiculous."

No, the financial remuneration in finance is ridiculous, larry. How many 'office workers' get '£60k' p.a??

"The current package, which is supportive of family life, means bright people choose it because they both want to teach and want to spend time with their families". well, apparently a) not family friendly to the families whose DC you teach, and b) We've just been told about all the 8-6pm and most of the holiday-working teachers. Doesn't sound 'family friendly' to me !

Ooh yes, of course, those teachers with their utterly non-transferable skill set. I could name off the top of my head a vast array of roles teachers can and do do after teaching but I can't be bothered frankly.

Michael, is that you?

Erebus,

Bright graduates would not consider teaching and those who have been in the job a few years who have good degrees could retrain into all the alternatives they had when they graduated. After all, they now also have a third of a masters and good man management skills. What is not to like?

As ever, if you suddenly change a reward structure negatively, the ones who leave are those who can, the brightest and best, and those who stay are the ones you would probably want to leave.

I don'tiks the proposals. School days are long enough for the vast majority of children. Plus the holiday system provides plenty of opportunity to actually play and be a child. I hate this fucking shit Government. Leave the poor children alone!