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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Hilary Mantel makes a good point

544 replies

juneau · 19/02/2013 08:15

She shouldn't have said it, since it's bitchy and uncalled for (and I actually find HM rather odd, if I'm honest), but after a good couple of years in the media spotlight I struggle to think of one thing the Duchess of Cambridge thinks or believes in. She never gives an opinion, she barely speaks, she just looks pretty and smiles.

OP posts:
pofacedplot · 20/02/2013 12:08

Because a is genuinely not laying into you. It is expressing mild exasperation with your argument and you continual feeling of being wronged and not willing to engage with a robust discussion. I have awful things going on in my life too, I am sorry you have a funeral to arrange, but I don't quite see why you are feeling so outraged by anything I have said to you. Very odd indeed.

pofacedplot · 20/02/2013 12:08

AND your continued pursuit of ignoring where the real attack lies, in those who have attacked Mantel. Odd, odd, odd.

pofacedplot · 20/02/2013 12:14

I dare to post one and my posts get called 'arrogant' 'patronising' 'unedifying' 'nauseating' . I mean honestly. Kind of undermined your argument there.

pofacedplot · 20/02/2013 12:26

And BRAVO to MNHQ for deleting other nasty thread about HM.

RebeccaMumsnet · 20/02/2013 12:46

As we said on the other (now deleted thread) We have no problem with folks attacking/criticising Hilary Mantel for her opinions (ie what she's written or said) but we do draw the line at attacks on her personal appearance.

Please can you steer away from those sort of comments please or we will have to remove this thread too.

Many thanks

pofacedplot · 20/02/2013 12:47

there are several posts of that ilk on this thread Rebecca.

RebeccaMumsnet · 20/02/2013 12:49

We are currently working our way through pofaced Thanks

BOF · 20/02/2013 13:25

It's hard to be surprised that the Daily Mail has managed to convene a jamboree of idiots, but it's nevertheless depressing to see so many of them here.

garlicbreeze · 20/02/2013 13:26

Good call, MNHQ.

I know the discussion's moved a long way, but I did want to acknowledge senua's post regarding Mantel's strange-sounding encounter with the Queen. It gave me a serious wtf moment, too.

Such was the hard power of my stare that Her Majesty turned and looked back at me, as if she had been jabbed in the shoulder. Mantel's stare is so special; so very hard, that a woman whose life revolves around being stared at feels it and turns at Mantel's wordless command!

Narcissistic, much?

garlicbreeze · 20/02/2013 13:28

Btw, Mantel then chose to spend time at a Buck House reception sitting on the floor behind a sofa. Confused

PetiteRaleuse · 20/02/2013 13:30

But in context she was the only person in the room who was staring at the Queen. Everyone else was looking away. I kind of got what she meant, but found the way she described it a little... offputting.

TanteRose · 20/02/2013 13:31

But the point of the stare was precisely that everyone else in the room was pointedly NOT looking at Liz. Maybe people don't usually stare and the Queen was genuinely surprised

garlicbreeze · 20/02/2013 13:34

Yes, maybe this maybe that Wink We've only got the author's account to go on. I am curious as to why she wanted to "jab" the Queen with her superhuman stare. It seems aggressive.

"A little offputting" indeed!

pofacedplot · 20/02/2013 13:37

:) RebeccaMumsnet.

I don't think Mantel was necessarily attributing some special status to her stare. More that it was a peculiar stare that the Queen sensed was uncomfortable. If anything I think Mantel is self deprecating in the way she describes it.

SirEdmundFrillary · 20/02/2013 13:37

I agree:

'Here is the Guardian's editorial. Warning. A few long words....
There is a generous explanation of yesterday?s sudden furore about what Hilary Mantel said about the Duchess of Cambridge ? a brief medialand frenzy into which both David Cameron and Ed Miliband foolishly allowed themselves to be drawn ? and then there is the one that is probably true.
The generous explanation is that this is half-term. The rich and powerful are on trade missions to India and ski breaks in the Alps. It is therefore a bit of a slow news week, with the press scraping around for things to write about. In such circumstances, there is a gut logic in tapping into the media?s monarchy mother lode, and fanning a controversy about what one of our leading writers has said about one of the most newsworthy royals ? even though it was actually said two weeks before it erupted on to the front pages yesterday.
The true explanation is that Ms Mantel?s supposed attack on the duchess is no such thing. If you trouble to read the richly textured lecture it soon becomes clear that, far from being ?completely misguided? (Cameron) or ?pretty offensive? (Miliband), it is a thoughtful and sympathetic reflection about the duchess and about royal women down the ages. To describe it as either ?venomous? (Daily Mail) or ?outrageous? (Daily Telegraph) is simply silly.
Ms Mantel?s subject is the way that the public relates to royalty, and to royal women in particular. She begins with Marie Antoinette and spends most of her lecture talking about Anne Boleyn and the other women whom she has brought back to life in her two widely read novels about the Tudors. In between she looks at Diana, Princess of Wales, and at her daughter-in-law. Today, as in the past, she argues, royal bodies, especially female ones, are in some sense public property, a claim that only someone who has not opened a newspaper in the past 30 years could dispute. There are, as one would expect from a double Man Booker prize winner, some strikingly expressed ideas, some of which (though not ?a royal lady is a royal vagina?) have been recycled to give the impression that the tone of the lecture is hostile to the duchess. This is manifestly untrue.
In fact, and in a manner which will delight semioticians, the response to Ms Mantel?s lecture embodies the very point that she is making. The royal body, she says, exists to be looked at. People stare at royal women, interpret them, derive entertainment from them, create fantasies about them. Sometimes, as Ms Mantel says, curiosity can become cruelty, even a form of sacrifice, certainly in Diana?s case, perhaps in that of the duchess. It is sad, as the lecture says, that the royals create such an uncontainable compulsion to comment. But in the light of yesterday?s brouhaha it can hardly be denied that they do."

TunipTheVegedude · 20/02/2013 13:41

Because her unflinching gaze is one of the things that makes her such an astounding writer.

(Except for the bit at the end of Bring Up The Bodies where she flinches at the thought of Mark Smeaton's torture and turns her writerly gaze away....)

coffeeinbed · 20/02/2013 13:41

It does seem aggressive, which is the counter point to the dociile plastic smoothness of the accepted female role.

claig · 20/02/2013 13:41

'But the point of the stare was precisely that everyone else in the room was pointedly NOT looking at Liz'

How did Mantel know that? Wasn't she too busy staring at the Queen?

Her article is not good and garlic analysed it very well.

Also this "dead eyes" bit of the portrait is quite obviously nothing to do with Kate, but is all about how the artist portrayed her, whereas Mantel seems to think that this was an accurate portrayal.

There is so much that can be picked apart about Mantel's article, but we value free speech and it is not nice to see political leaders piling in.

claig · 20/02/2013 13:43

'but is all about how the artist portrayed her'

or how otheres interpret the artist's portrayal

garlicbreeze · 20/02/2013 13:49

The response to Ms Mantel?s lecture embodies the very point that she is making. YY, as intended and as this thread has been saying. I still feel she failed to observe her own role in her observation (Martin Amis is always good on this - as are quantum physicists!) and, in a lecture on this specific topic, that's a serious failure.

It must be clear that I didn't like it, but that shouldn't be the point of any post on the subject.

Going back to The Princess William, I imagine the royal machine is intelligently using the 'paper cut-out' to protect the woman within from her audience's pokes and jabs.

garlicbreeze · 20/02/2013 13:50

YY, Cameron & Milliband made dicks of themselves. Quelle surprise.

garlicbreeze · 20/02/2013 13:50

Thanks, Claig!

pofacedplot · 20/02/2013 13:53

No that's not true, she observe her own role in the observation. She is aware that she is observing with a mixture of sympathy and savagery, as the new statesman put it.

and I disagree garlic with your opinon of why the royal machine is creating such a oblique image of the DofC.

pofacedplot · 20/02/2013 13:55

and she describes her own gaze as that of a 'cannibal' - hardly flattering!

garlicbreeze · 20/02/2013 13:56

Well, hey :) Neither of us know, so all we can do is discuss it.

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