Pope to resign!

[Mandy2003]

Didn't know this was allowed - thought they saw themselves as "chosen" by a higher power and it was a job for life

But no reason has been given yet following the simple announcement from the Vatican.

[sieglinde]

Goodness, no, juggling. Just I hardly know ANYONE that counts as 'married' by strict RC standards. I actually love the Quakers! If I wasn't RC I might be quaker.

My point was more that I can't see why there's a particular fuss about same-sex marriage given that the RC church also condemns all childless marriages and in fact any ceremony done outside the RC church. By these standards, none of my extended family are married... :)

Lovely to hear about your friend, 1944. Yes, the RC church is really all about communion/the sacraments/visiting the Blessed Sacrament/sacramentals. People outside it tend to focus on its theology of the body, but my point is that this isn't really central to most RCs themselves.

[JugglingFromHereToThere]

Sorry Sieglinde I think I misunderstood what you were saying there - as I said I was surprised by what I thought I read as I remember having some good discussions with you before (though I have a shocking memory so it's more of an impression than a memory !)

Glad to hear you say you might be a Quaker if you weren't an RC ! And interesting to understand more about the importance of sacraments to Catholics.

[seeker]

But...but...but....if you believe in the apostolic succession, then surely you also have to believe in Papal infallibility? And when the Pope pronounces on, for example, human sexuality ex cathedra you have to do follow him?

[JugglingFromHereToThere]

Who says St.Peter was infallible though ? I thought that would just be Jesus as he was divine ? (according to Christian tradition)

[seeker]

Papal infallibility is a central tenet of Catholicism. I don't see how you can be a catholic and not believe in it.

[JugglingFromHereToThere]

I'm not a Catholic though, brought up CofE, now Quaker

[sieglinde]

Juggling, seeker:

Good to have a chance to explain. It is a bit complex...

Apostolic succession and the doctrine of infallibility are separate though related ideas.

The former need not imply the latter. Most C of Es believe in the former but NOT the latter.

The former simply means the idea that each Bishop of Rome takes on the authority granted to Peter by Christ, when Christ said 'upon this rock I will build my church' - this is actually a pun on Peter's new nickname, Petrus or Rocky... and 'what you hold bound on earth I will hold bound in heaven.'

Papal infallibility applies only to a very VERY few pronouncements, seeker. The latest is actually the assumption of Mary, and as far as I know there has NEVER been an infallible pronouncement on the theology of the body. It's usually a weapon against serious schism.. so the following are the most agreed instances:

"Tome to Flavian", Pope Leo I, 449, on the two natures in Christ, received by the Council of Chalcedon; [against the Arian heresy]
Letter of Pope Agatho, 680, on the two wills of Christ, received by the Third Council of Constantinople;
Benedictus Deus, Pope Benedict XII, 1336, on the beatific vision of the just prior to final judgment;
Cum occasione, Pope Innocent X, 1653, condemning five propositions of Jansen as heretical;
Auctorem fidei, Pope Pius VI, 1794, condemning seven Jansenist propositions of the Synod of Pistoia as heretical;
Ineffabilis Deus, Pope Pius IX, 1854, defining the Immaculate Conception;
Munificentissimus Deus, Pope Pius XII, 1950, defining the Assumption of Mary.

Can't see that these are likely to outrage or even interest most outside the RC church

Therefore it is perfectly possible to be a very devout catholic and to disagree a LOT even with ex cathedra statements, though normally such disagreements should be private. (Ex cathedra is NOT btw the same as an infallible pronouncement at ALL.)

If anyone is still awake interested I can rant on some more about ex cathedra.

[Viviennemary]

The Pope is only infallible on doctrinal matters. (Sorry if that sounds like something out of Father Ted. . Not on moralistic ones. That's what I was told in any case. So if he says Jesus rose from the dead that's doctrinal. But no sex before marriage that's moralistic.

[catgirl1976]

Has anyone seen this stuff about him writing to the Italian PM requesting immunity from prosecution?

[sieglinde]

He's not even infallible on all doctrinal matters, Viviennemary. Only on a few. But certainly NOT on moral matters.

[Viviennemary]

A priest told me years and years ago he was when a few of us young ones were querying all sorts! So I've remembered that. But you're right only when he makes a special announcement. I forgot that bit! It was several lifetimes ago. A quote from the bible. Jesus said to Peter I give you the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven. ' Haven't looked it up but something along those lines. So that was good enough for me. Though I hardly ever go to church these days.

[KenDoddsDadsDog]

Nah he's not infallible , we don't have to virtuously agree with everything he says. Especially on moral issues.

[sieglinde]

Ken Dodd, can you read? I explained above. Infallibility DOESN'T mean you have to agree with everything the Pope says.

I suspect you want to ignore that so you can fill your straw target with arrows.

[fedupworking]

who really cares anyway. It's about time their was no pope's

[KenDoddsDadsDog]

I was agreeing with you sieglinde. Thought you explained very well. Wind your neck in.

[sieglinde]

Sorry, Ken. Love your insult, btw. Makes me think of Alice in Wonderland in serpent form. Consider it wound.

[KenDoddsDadsDog]