Indian rape victim has died

[xkittyx]

Sadly just seen on Al Jazeera that the poor woman who was raped and assaulted earlier in December has died.

x-post funnyperson. Aye, perhaps. But things like this happen to women (and men) the world over. Things are improving here definitely, but a hell of a long way to go.

That was me agreeing with you, btw! Sorry, not very eloquent tonight

It doesn't matter where it happened. I remember that case, funny. Yes, he was sentenced and the bus company were dragged through the media for it. As far as I can gather, the victim is still recovering.

Surely we all have rights, no matter which country we live in, rights to basic healthcare and the right to be safe? I've never considered myself to be a feminist but the more inequalities I see the angrier I get. I'd like to do something, I've no idea what yet though. The voice of one is very quiet, the voice of many can move mountains and all of that.

Is the trial being rushed through while the schools are closed?

I don't know. No one really knows as there is no precedent thankfully.

Are you in India at the moment, funnyperson?

I suspect there are few posts here because it is hard to say anything that doesn't sound trite about such a despicable crime.

Hello Maud! No I am not- but friends on facebook are keeping me posted and the Indian newspapers are available on line. As you know even with facebook there are limitations as most wise people will limit remarks. I went to school in Delhi so all my old school batch have been nattering, as to be expected. We come from the generation who would never have gone out after dark with a boyfriend but we also come from the generation who have sons and daughters who definitely expect to go out after dark with their boyfriends/girlfriends, to cinemas and clubbing or whatever in delhi or anywhere else in the world. No one of my acquaintance would have used a bus at that time of night, and the young lady and man in question were not from a Delhi family which is presumably why they got on a bus at all at that time, but that is not the point: the crime is heinous and unforgivable.
www.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/conquering-the-fear-of-the-setting-sun/article4269936.ece?homepage=true

The laws used to prevent gatherings of more than 5 people near India Gate etc after the police officer died are the laws of a state of emergency. The last time they were invoked was in Indira Gandhi's time. If history is anything to go by, the politics is about to undergo a deep sea change and most of this will not be apparent in the media. I suspect that women will be voting for the people most likely to keep them safe.

But what about the men? Rape has a strange place in India's history- the mogul invasions and the riots during partition were marked by rape and pillage so I'm not sure how the Indian male subconscious is going to deal with this episode. Thankfully neither religion nor caste was a factor, and oddly as it turned out, probably not class either. The UN has already stated that India is one of the most discriminatory places in the world for women. Cases like this may make that worse not better. It would be very interesting to know what the men think. Sorry for the long post.

No, please keep posting. Your insights are interesting, even though they make sometimes uncomfortable reading.

I have been feeling so sick and angry about this.

What is the likely outcome in terms of sentencing? (I am not familiar with the legal system there at all)

That poor, poor girl.

Oh dear. DD thinks I dont blame the men enough. She goes on slutwalks and is a feminist. I do blame the men. I'm not sure the men blame the men.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_India

the maximum penalty for murder is the death penalty.

And that, I think, is the key. Until the men blame the men, progress will be limited and slow.

funny why does your dd say that? I have come accross some people online who i think dont blame the men enough, those who say getting the bus at that time is dangerous etc, is it true?

funnyperson, see, it just took an interesting insight to get this thread going . Good on your DD!
I had not quite picked up on just how tense the situation seems to be in India from what you are saying. How worrying.

I am finding myself becoming a more and more angry feminist with advancing middle-age. Tbh, I don't see how anybody with female genitalia and the desire to have sole control over what happens to them, can NOT be a feminist.
I am poorly read on the subject (cannot bear the thought of getting ever more angry as I am actually quite a cheeful soul - the Politics of Breastfeeding almost caused me apoplexy) and at best lurk on the feminism boards and some blogs.

Wrt to this horrible case, I particularly liked the posters some of the demonstators in India had, stating 'Don't get rape d' - so true.
It would be horrendous if cases like this ment that girls/women go out less, whether by their own volition or on family pressure/concern. And yes, until men blame men not much will change.
I suspect I am a bit of a bleeding heart liberal, but I cannot find myself wishing for the death penalty for the men involved. I feel that would almost let them off the hook by being too final IYKWIM. Lifelong hard labour? Chemical castration? Both??
I really don't know. NOTHING will bring this girl and her friend back .

At the beginning I was quite 'soft' too - not in favour of the death penalty. But now I think it is really important that if the evidence proves that these men did what it is said they did, that this is a 'rarest of the rare' crime, and so the death penalty should be imposed. Otherwise all other men committing rape will think they can get away with it and all women will think that the Indian judiciary will allow men to get away with it.

I tend to think you're right, funnyperson. I don't, at heart, support the death penalty, but I think the logic of this case is that, if convicted, these men must surely deserve the most serious penalty that local law can provide.

The poor poor girl- this literally hurts my heart. I hope that something good can come out of this sickening situation and attitudes are changed, how can this happen in this day and age fucked up

I can see that, of course.
There are just no words to express my utter failure to comprehend how these things happen over and over again, and always have done .

pacificdogwood what you say about things happening again and again simply has to be resisted. Firstly as with all things there are safer places to be and not so safe places to be and so we can all aspire to make the place we live in one of the safer places. By simply not accepting that criminals should go unchallenged or unpunished. By instilling mutual respect in our sons and daughters, nephews and nieces. By helping our daughters and sons to realise they have the right to say 'no' as well as the right to say 'yes'.
And yes, and I know that I am middle aged, and perhaps not everyone will agree with me, but by being sensible about when and how we travel late at night and what we wear and who we travel with and letting the DC know what we think is sensible and looking out for our young and teaching them about stranger danger and waking up and slogging out in the dark to pick them up from z's house party and taking self defence classes and all of that. And I dont care that DD says all of that is a load of old cobblers because I think if we didn't do all of that things would be worse than they are and we parents do all of that so that our young can live and be confident enough to tell us what a load of old squares we are. But old squares cant be with their daughters and sons the whole time so there comes a point when it is down to the police and the judiciary and the government to help make a city or a country safe from criminals.

funnyperson I see what you mean about being sensible whilst at the same time disagreeing with you, in that the onus is put back on the victim/potential victim rather than the perpeptrator not to do something horrible in the first place.
But while I agree with your DD, I do completely understand why you would want your children safe at all costs rather than see them at risk proving a point about what should be right.
It makes me so angry to think that women have to alter their behaviour, curtail their own freedoms for fear of something terrible happening to them. Even though it's something I myself do.
In terms of this case and the death penalty - I too normally oppose the death penalty but I can't feel any opposition to these men being put to death. I view them as being irredeemable.
Time will tell if this case has any impact or represents the start of any sort of change of attitude. I really hope so.
I'm originally from a country with a staggeringly high rate of rape and rape/murder of women and children and every so often there is case of such staggering horror and barbarity one thinks, surely now, surely something must begin to give, but sadly it never does and the attacks seem to go on and on and on.

I hear what you're saying, xkitty, but (with some reluctance) I agree with funnyperson about taking a precautionary approach. The unpalatable truth, I think, is that if you know that you live in a society, culture, environment where sexism and casual violence against women are rife, then you do need to modify your behaviour accordingly. And then, of course, you try to bring about change so that the sexism and violence ends. It's an imperfect analogy, obviously, but there's a parallel with swimming in a shark-infested pool - the main priority is to get the shark out of the pool but, until then, don't dive in.

ComeIntoTheGarden, I do personally modify my behaviour - and when back visiting my home country, I modify it heavily - I'd be far too afraid not to.
However, I will not point a finger of blame at anyone for being the victim of a crime. If a woman is raped or attacked, the blame lies wholly and entirely with her attacker. If we start asking her to accept a portion of the blame, we're on a terribly slippery slope.
Also, the other reality is that some woman have little choice in terms of their safety. When I'm back home I'm with my husband, we have a private vehicle, stay in secure accommodation and there is private security. Many woman live in deprived areas with massive crime rates, inadequate policing, unregulated public transport. They might work a long way away from where they live, and work odd hours. These women run a daily risk of being attacked, not for being out partying, not for a choice, but simply going to and from work. They can't stay indoors - they and their children would starve.
It's heart-breaking - women in most of the world have such limited choice.

_xkittyx Fri 04-Jan-13 00:15:39
ComeIntoTheGarden, I do personally modify my behaviour - and when back visiting my home country, I modify it heavily - I'd be far too afraid not to.
However, I will not point a finger of blame at anyone for being the victim of a crime. If a woman is raped or attacked, the blame lies wholly and entirely with her attacker. If we start asking her to accept a portion of the blame, we're on a terribly slippery slope.
Also, the other reality is that some woman have little choice in terms of their safety. When I'm back home I'm with my husband, we have a private vehicle, stay in secure accommodation and there is private security. Many woman live in deprived areas with massive crime rates, inadequate policing, unregulated public transport. They might work a long way away from where they live, and work odd hours. These women run a daily risk of being attacked, not for being out partying, not for a choice, but simply going to and from work. They can't stay indoors - they and their children would starve. _

This. A friend of mine's 14-year-old daughter recently told me that she is quite happy to move (with her parents) to another city in our country, as she will finally be able to wear a skirt. She doesn't feel comfortable wearing a skirt at the moment, as it will attract too much attention. We live in Europe.

I feel sick to my stomach every time I think about that poor woman in India. I want to do something but I don't know what I can do. I feel so angry, impotent, and diminished. What can we in Europe do? Tell us, please.

I have not suggested that victims should be blamed and hope my remarks have not been interpreted that way. Culpability rests entirely with the offender. All I am suggesting is that (conversely) women who make choices about (for example) how to dress should not be criticised either - often there seems to be an implication that they are propping up the status quo and that seems to me to be criticism under another guise.. Xkittyx makes some good points about how limited the choices about self protection can be, in any case.