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A and E database

225 replies

ZebraInHiding · 27/12/2012 14:54

www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/dec/27/every-child-accident-emergency-dabatase

I thought they did this anyway? Don't they senda note to your health visitor?

Do you agree with it or do you think it will make people worry more? Whilst I can see the good in it, I worry that kids just won't get taken for help any more. Not sure what the solution is though. :(

OP posts:
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TheHumancatapult · 28/12/2012 21:51

Sofia

Without being rude you can not fix DNA . The condition we have Is with our DNA gentic make up ( I have same condition on Ewing with my ds3 having even rarer form

It is throughout our whole bodies involving internal and external joints /0rgans bone and skin

I can see the advantage of a joined up database In principle it is good . But I would wonder if people they are targeting will mainly just stop going yk A&E as they aware be questioned

Where others will take dx automatically for genuine injuries and could face the 3rd degree

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Sirzy · 28/12/2012 21:57

Hopefully a more joined up system will mean that information about on going conditions, especially rare ones, is easier to access which COULD (if done right) reduce the false accusations when they are based on existing conditions.

The system at the moment doesn't allow that to happen within one hospital let alone nationally!

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SPBInDisguise · 28/12/2012 22:02

I imagine this will be collected as part of the maternity and children data set

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MrsJREwing · 28/12/2012 22:36

Hi Human, did you get further info regarding your ds, it was not available to you last time we met. I can't see you on fb anymore. Good advice about photocopying the dx thanks.

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Mosman · 28/12/2012 22:58

maternityandchildrendataset, that'll explain why it now takes two hours to get discharged these days then.
At the end of the day like all data bases garbage in equals garbage out and it'll be very dangerous to over rely on this source, it's a tool but it's only one tool.

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pigletmania · 28/12/2012 23:44

I'm in two minds, there are children who have conditions tat need A&E attention frequently such as brittle bones, or chidrem who are a bit too daredevil. It could prevent another child death from abuse

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MrsSham · 28/12/2012 23:57

It should not mean that children who have conditions or who are accident prone are under anymore suspicion than previously, what it means is that information is readily available where there are concerns that would have previously existed with or with out the database. It should just mean that mistakes either side of the spectrum are more avoidable because information that should be shared can be shared. Anyone saying they would now not take their children to a&e should be questioning their morals really. Your children need treatment why the hell would you not take them to receive treatment. I don't believe it for one bit that loving catering patents would be so suspicious they would avoid treatment, that's scaremongering and bull shit. Even a a users seek treatment a lot of the time and many children sustain injury through neglect rather than cold blooded abuse.

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SofiaAmes · 29/12/2012 04:50

human, I'm sorry for your child's illness. I do not actually know what the illness is that MrsJREwing (and your child) have, so can't comment on the possibility of "fixing" it. I do know lots about the genetic illness that my ds has and it is treatable. In his case the mitochondrial dna mutation affects a metabolic pathway and he takes high doses of the nutrient missing/not properly utilized (they don't quite know which) in this pathway. In my ds' case I refer to him as "cured" in quotations because all his adverse symptoms have been eliminated, but he does still have to take the nutrient for the rest of his life (a small price to pay for his good health). I understand that his dna have not been fixed (I don't believe I ever said they were), but his disease has been treated. It is my understanding that there are many more children with mitochondrial disease who could be successfully treated in the same way, but who aren't because their symptoms are not getting recognized as indicators of mitochondrial issues. Much of this medicine and research is quite new and still hasn't filtered down past the scientists and researchers to the practitioners. I was just lucky enough, by complete coincidence to have a father who happened to work in the field of my ds' disease. It is certainly much better to have a letter that puts a name to my ds' disease than a list of all his episodes of illness and his visits to A&E....the former is much more useful to carry around with you (as you have pointed out).

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SofiaAmes · 29/12/2012 05:02

Sirzy, I think the problem is that with some of these genetic illnesses, it can take many years to get diagnosed and in the meantime no one knows that they are all symptoms of one disease. My ds wasn't given an official written diagnosis until he was 11 1/2. In the meantime he spent a lot of time in bed, in the doctor's office and in A&E for a bunch of what could have (and did) seemed to be completely unrelated illnesses and issues. He had high fevers, blindness, week long bouts of severe vomiting, chest infections, ear infections, multiple occasions where he couldn't put any weight on his left leg (inflamed hip joint), head migraines, stomach migraines, chronic fatigue (2 weeks where he slept 21 hours a day), fainting, clumsiness....in 11.5 years, no one ever connected any of these symptoms (despite my carrying around detailed lists of all the episodes) and many people accused me of provoking them, making them up, exaggerating them, etc. Unfortunately, I'm not confident that having a joined up system would make it any better, unless the people doing the analysis are highly trained medical professionals and even then.....

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marriedandwreathedinholly · 29/12/2012 08:35

What we need are a higher standard of nursing care, where nurses observe and listen and report concerns and a much much higher quality health visiting service. If NHS staff were taught to listen, to observe and to exercise logic there would be better care for everybody not just those at risk. What is being proposed sounds like a sledgehammer to crack a nut but it will no doubt create some extra admin jobs to deal with yet more bureaucracy rather than ensuring existing medical and professional staff are fit for purpose.

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ohcluttergotme · 29/12/2012 08:43

I'm a children's nurse and qualified HV, not working as HV as too heartbreaking. When training as HV It was always obvious that more joined up working between health, education and SW needed to be in place to help prevent abuse and deaths. This is what the reports and enquiries always reccommend but never seems to happen. I have a very lively and dare devil ds (aged 3). We have been at A&E a fair few times in his short life and have never been treated with suspicion, I have always found the hospital staff helpful and friendly. I don't mind answering the same questions over and over as appreciate they are doing their job and I know that what I am saying is the truth. During my training we had to learn about many different reasons why children would turn up at A&E and genetic disorders played a big part of that training. Also as nurses on the wards you saw many children in the wards with rare genetic disorders so you were aware of these conditions when working in A&E. I'm so sorry for the families who have had a nightmare with agencies being mis-trustful and unbelieving and putting innocent families through such an ordeal.
I do think though that we have to carry on being like this as we can't risk missing abused children. I honestly believe if it saves one abused child then all the questions and follow-up visits etc are worth it. We atill have a long, long way to go as currently agengies still work very individually and don't always share information.

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insanityscratching · 29/12/2012 08:55

We had an experience where one (maybe overzealous) doctor in A&E told dh that he would be alerting the authorities as ds's injury was suspicious but whether he did or not we had no contact from anyone.
Ds was twelve (hadn't been to A&E since he was 3 when he tumbled and banged his head leaving a cut that needed gluing) had been out on his bike on the trail with friends. He came home with a friend pushing his bike with an injured hand that he said he had done trying to save himself from falling off of his bike his friend confirmed this. He has dyspraxia so clumsy is his middle name so we had no reason to question this.
Dh repeated this at A&E as did ds when questioned separately. Xrays showed a broken bone in his thumb not from being wrenched back as he had said and dh repeated but from being crushed into his palm.
Later discovered he and his friend had been wrestling and he was hurt when his friend knelt on his hand crushing his thumb but was worried I'd be mad at him and had cooked up the story with ds.
I spoke to our GP who reassured me that the hospital would most likely contact her and I didn't need to worry. Never heard anything else so whether they did contact GP who said there was no cause for concern or not I don't know.
I don't think having all visits logged would worry the majority of parents because IME even a suspicious injury doesn't necessarily mean an investigation by the authorities I do wonder though whether some parents would avoid getting a child treatment if they were afraid of involvement from child services for instance.

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BoffinMum · 29/12/2012 09:31

In the late 1980s and early 1990s, when I was a very young mum, we had several experiences in A and E where DD would go in with some sort of minor injury or illness that needed attention - stubborn croup in one case (referred by GP), a couple of stitches needed in another, one time she pulled a tea cup over herself and the burn needed dressing properly to make sure it didn't scar. These are routine incidents that often happen to kids as they grow up. Every single time I was hounded by some over zealous twit, usually a fairly junior doctor, guilty of child abuse until proven innocent.

Eventually I took advice from my mum, who is very wise about such things, and she suggested that it might be worth getting DP to phone up the lead consultant in his authoritative male voice. DP did this and said how disturbed we were that there might be some deep meaningful underlying problem, and we had decided that only the best was good enough for our DD, so we were wanting his suggestion for a referral to the top consultant psychiatrist for such things, in his opinion.

Of course the lead consultant did not want to refer, as it was clear that he would look a right plonker if he sent us to someone like this, given that DD had suffered from a small number of minor childhood things and had perfectly normal, supportive parents. He told us not to worry and he would 'deal with it' for us. I presume this meant speaking to the most recent culprit and asking him what the hell he was doing. Anyway, the problem went away, and when she had a headache, high temperature and stiff neck a year later, and I took her in to rule out meningitis, we were treated normally (it transpired it was flu plus a neck injury sustained in a school PE lesson, but all of those together was pretty scary. Anyway, I trangress).

In the light of my own experience, what I worry about is that inexperienced doctors and nurses sometimes have a messianic zeal for safeguarding. They carry out ill informed and fairly amateurish profiling, picking on certain groups of parents and subjecting them to all sorts of unwarranted attention. If this is unproven and put on a database, it is very easy to start building up a picture of abuse where none exists. It will deter people from taking kids to A and E for minor things (it would certainly have deterred me if the lead consultant hadn't taken it upon himself to set his department in order) and lead to a breakdown of trust between professional and parents/child.

When I wrote our departmental child safeguarding policy for students on placements, one of the things I made sure was emphasised was the need to refer upwards and not approach safeguarding with a missionary zeal in order to 'feel good' or 'feel professional'. It's all about the children, at the end of the day, and where real abuse exists (which is rarer than you would think), there needs to be a careful approach involving people who have direct experience of dealing with such things over a long period of time, not people who have read about it in a text book or seen a couple of documentaries on the telly. Blundering about interrogating parents every five minutes or filling databases with unsubstantiated allegations is not going to help. It needs expertise, proper training, and nuanced professionalism. Better to have a policy where all children attending A and E have a full health check each time, for example, or increase the number of school nurses, or invest in Sure Start, or offer annual child health checks via the GP. Databases are a poorly conceived, commercially driven alternative, and will be a complete waste of taxpayers' money (as ContactPoint was).

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marriedandwreathedinholly · 29/12/2012 09:55

Interesting isn't it Boffinmum - and I wholeheartedly agree with all you say. But I experienced the exact opposite - (as well as all the visits for bulging ear drums out of hours, split heads andbroken bones) I once took dd having pulled her elbow out of place by leaning over and taking her hand to get her to sit up because it was bed time and she was lying on the floor and not co-operating. It was dreadful and I was sure I would be referred in aande but I told the doctor I had done it and it was my fault and he just said - don't worry about it; we know there's no need to be concerned when parents walk in say it's their fault and the child still only let's the doctor touch them sitting on mum's lap and clings on tightly. That little story apart I never experienced an over zealous doctor but I was in my late thirties.

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MrsSham · 29/12/2012 10:04

So your dh made a call and a year later you think you where remembered for that? I doubt that very much.

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slartybartfast · 29/12/2012 10:42

the data base will show who is on child protection register and/or who has been on child protection register.

it will not cause you to be put on child protection register.
really dont understand the attitude of people getting sniffy with doctors Doing their job. If you havent done anythign wrong you have nothign to worry about.

i recall someone who got sniffy and annoyed with the doctors who questioned why there dd was in car seat, on the table - and fell off! you know you shouldnt do that so dont get on your high horse about it, when it goes wrong.

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lulu2012 · 29/12/2012 10:45

Mrs JREwing, so sorry to hear of your struggles, I don't know all your specifics but the fact you mentioned many GI issues immmediately flagged up the GAPS diet to me. It is really worth researching as healing the gut is integral to overall health and has worked well with neurological problems, auto immune probs, digestive problems, allergies etc. Good luck x

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Spero · 29/12/2012 11:08

Sorry boffin mum, I don't think your husband making a call, however 'deep and authoritative' his voice had anythingto do with what happened a year later.

I am sorry if you were subjected to questioning you didnt like and found unpleasant. But again, what would you have a doctor do? A child comes in 'needing a few stiches', then again having been scalded by tea. This may just be very unfortunate for child or it could indicate something quite seriously wrong at home.

I am glad doctors are 'over zealous' about child protection. much rather thatbthan the other way round. And if your child has a very unusual condition, why not take a letter with you to hospital so emergency doctors can see the original diagnosis? I appreciate this won't be the case if your child has yet to be diagnosed but wha are people then suggesting? That no parents are ever questioned, just in case their child happens to be suffering from a very rare condition and the questions might upset theparents?

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LaVolcan · 29/12/2012 11:45

In the Victoria Climbie and Baby Peter case, it didn't seem as though doctors were 'overzealous'. As far as I remember, it seemed that no-one wanted to take responsibility despite both children being seen on numerous occasions. As far as I can see, only if someone is prepared to accept that the buck stops with them, will a database be of any use.

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Mosman · 29/12/2012 12:14

That goes back to the test results somebody said earlier had to be ordered three times, if nobody actually follows up and sees something through to it's conclusion then these tragedies will keep happening.

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MrsDeVere · 29/12/2012 12:27

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Offred · 29/12/2012 12:55

Do you know what would have a big effect on cases like baby p and Victoria climbie? Banning child abuse physical discipline...

This database relies on the people who add things to the records to be a. Knowledgable and b. trustworthy. Which I do not believe they are.

This database gives great potential for unfounded allegations to snowball. It may pick up some children who are being abused/neglected in minor ways by parents who don't really realise that is what they are doing. It will not pick up cases like baby p where the parents are abusing the child and going to some lengths to cover it up. If the child is on a CP plan unrelated to anything the parents may have done to them will it flag this up? If so are doctors/health visitors/midwives/nurses etc actually trustworthy and trained enough in dealing with CP or will it just bias diagnosis/treatment?

I don't think this is the answer, it is simply more monitoring and it will prevent children from accessing treatment.

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Offred · 29/12/2012 12:58

My parents are both doctors, I was physically and emotionally abused (possibly other forms of abuse I don't remember) by them, because of their status when I told people, even an allegation of sexual abuse I made as a teen but don't remember making, people said "everyone hates their parents as a teen you'll grow out of it". Conversely my two friends who were Children of single mothers (one is my age so contemporary) were actually removed from their mothers and put into foster care temporarily for much, much less.... There are so many biases in the system already about what gets recorded and when and by who...

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Offred · 29/12/2012 13:00

And who is going to admin it? Based on other govt schemes G4S? It will be a private company, one who will have access to sensitive medical information and who will not be subject to public law.

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LittleMissSnowShine · 29/12/2012 13:46

Firstly just want to say how upsetting and utterly reprehensible cases like Baby P are and how necessary it is for statutory health and social care agencies to work closely together to prevent things like this from happening.

However, I work in an small organisation which works with young people (aged 14 - 17) and their parents. The young people we work with are from some of the most socio-economically deprived areas in the UK and they have all disengaged from mainstream education. The families are often struggling with a raft of different issues - everything from mental health problems, poverty, addiction, domestic abuse etc. There are usually younger children in the families too. Many have involvement, either short term or long term, with social services. Undeniably a lot of the parents we work with do need additional support.

However, many of them are genuinely really trying their best for their kids, often under some incredibly difficult circumstances, and I can't help but feel that a system like this which basically red flags kids whose families have had social services involvement or who are from particular areas etc. is bound to be open to abuse and to be used to bully and intimidate parents who are not in a position to stand up for themselves. I can see a lot of kids possibly being taken into care unnecessarily as a result, creating disruption and emotional chaos. It definitely raises a lot of questions around how far the state should be allowed to intervene (interfere?) in family life.

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