Flag saga Northern Ireland

[SucksFakeSanta]

I am ashamed to be from NI.

Thank goodness there has been no loss of life, but some people have had terrifying experiences.

My DC are now scared of 'the flag people' after the route to my DTSs birthday dinner was blocked by a mob earlier this evening.

Seriously fed up with it all. Cannot imagine what it must be like to be working in retail or tourism at the minute.

[DioneTheDiabolist]

Is it worth it Claig?
Probably not. It definitely could have been timed better.

However, should we ignore democratic process because a very tiny minority have decided to go on a rioting spree?

[claig]

'So, you have to base your actions on what is right/democratic/whatever; you can't make decisions based on what will cause fewest riots. Otherwise the fuckwits win.'

Yes, I agree with that in theory. But when you look at Northern Ireland and see killers on both sides involved in politics, pragmatism took precedence over law. Northern Ireland is not like Kensington & Chelsea and pragmatism does sometimes override principle.

[BoulevardOfBrokenSleep]

The flag hasn't been changed, it's just being flown on fewer days per year.

Does this upset loyalists - undoubtedly, but they're not the only people who live in NI.

[bureni]

Like Wales Northern Ireland is not represented in the union flag so its a lot of fuss over nothing.

[claig]

'However, should we ignore democratic process because a very tiny minority have decided to go on a rioting spree?'

Wasn't ot tiny minorities of pramilitaries on both sides that overrode the democratic will of teh majority of the people, and compromises and releases had to be made in order that they would agree to a peace deal? Sensitivities on both sides have to be understood and respected in order not to increase the divide. It will be a slow process in Northern Ireland before theoretical principles can truly prevail.

[claig]

bureni that is a good point. In which case for how many years has the Union Jack flown over that council?

[bureni]

For as long as I can remember, the Northern Ireland flag was banned in the 1970s as were all other flags except the union flag, perhaps that is why the unionists are so up in arms after loosing their last flag. N.I needs a new flag agreed upon by all parties and one that can be flown in all parts of the country. Perhaps the politicans and police should also take a stronger line in the removal of all the illegal flags in the country.

[ChablisLover]

Charleybarley- I agree. I didn't necessarily agree with him but David Ervine spoke a lot of sense and when i spoke to others he spoke sense to both sides of the community.

[ballroomblitz]

Since 1906 I read the other day claig

[ChablisLover]

Bureni - on good morning ulster on Monday I think, a wee woman in Derry from the waterside said she didn't see all the fuss. She said the roi flag was designed green for Ireland, orange for the north and white for peace between them. Now, I don't think adopting the tricolour will work for some people in ni but yes, sometimes too much importance is placed on it but a new flag would be as controversial if not more so than this

[SantaIAmSoFuckingRock]

i agree bureni

the union flag holds a different symbolic meaning in NI than it does in the rest of the UK. for many it will always be used to antagonise and for others it will always be a source of hostility, whether meant to be or not. the same with the tricolour.

a new flag for northern ireland would be a symbol of (hopefully) a new path. a line drawn under the past and one that couldn't be used to anger or offend anyone. i also think NI needs a brand new influx of politicians who dont pander to once powerful criminals gangs. and no criminals amongst them!

[bureni]

Chabislover, the Irish tricolour was designed to represent peace between catholics(green) and protestants (orange), it has nothing to do with peace between the south and the north.

[claig]

'Since 1906 I read the other day claig'

Wiw, well then that is a big change, and you have to wonder why change it now when it will create more division.

[claig]

wow, not wiw

[claig]

done just before Hilary Clinton visited as well and before Christmas. Strange timing.

[TheCraicDealer]

Yep, much the same as India flag, but replace Prod/RC with Muslim and Hindu.

Anyway, doesn't matter what it was designed to represent, fact is it's the flag of another country entirely. I'll fully support the flying of the tricolour in NI the day I can vote someone representing North Belfast into the Oireactas or Dáil (please forgive spelling, Alevel politics was a long time ago).

[scarlettsmummy2]

The thing is though that a large number of people in NI do not see themselves as British, but Irish. I am Protestant, but have absolutely no problem with the Irish flag being flown in Belfast as I recognise the fact that many of my friends see them selves as Irish so why shouldn't their flag fly alongside the union jack? SF and the SDLP have a large number of MLAs. Are we really still that backward that we can't embrace different opinions?

[ChablisLover]

Bureni - I think that was the sentiments I was trying to put across. It wasn't necessarily politically accurate.

[claig]

scarlettsmummy2, I am not sure that people will ever fly flags of other countries from town halls. I might be wrong and maybe they do already. But if NI became part of a united Ireland, would Sinn Fein accept a British flag flying over a town hall. I doubt it. I think they would want an Irish flag to fly there and I fully understand that.

One day we may all be flying EU flags instead of national flags, but I think there will be resistance to that, because people are proud of their diversity and their allegiance to their country and traditions.

[TheCraicDealer]

Nationality is something that is very hard to explain, much like trying to explain why your favourite colour is yellow- "it just is". It's completely up to the individual how they wish to define themselves and if they're more comfortable with seeing a tricolour than a Union Jack then fair fucks. That's their right and it was enshrined in the introduction of TGFA.

However, the Republic is a different country. We pay our taxes, in pounds, to the exchequer. We are represented in parliament (both national and local) by politicians who have a mandate from the British government to make decisions on our behalf. It's disingenuous to have both flags flying over government buildings because although the Republic have a part to play in the peace process, NI is still governed and bankrolled by the UK.

I realise that might seem pedantic to some, but if you think there's trouble now just imagine what would be happening if there was a possibility of the tricolour flying over the City Hall. Not only would Loyalists be turning out, but also Republicans in defence of their flag. Chaos.

[JingleBellaTheGymnast]

A gathering is happening on Sunday if anyone is interested:

City Hall peaceful gathering

[mathanxiety]

It doesn't 'create more division' Claig. Giving in to the rioters would create more divisions because it would encourage hardliners on both sides to dig in with hope of the most extreme gesture resulting in getting their own way.

The decision about the flag acknowledges that there is division already about the flag and always has been, and it acknowledges the validity of the feelings of those who would rather not see that flag flying 365 days a year.

Those who have chosen to riot about it are doing so in order to intimidate their own community into abandoning Alliance next time round. The paint bombing is highly significant. It is a very explicit warning and not all about the flag issue per se at all.

[mathanxiety]

If I followed the inhereted voting patterns, Alex Maskey would be my last choice. But it seems, that on the subject of anything not related to NI politics, unionists are in bed with the tories.

Unionists have always been tories. Back in 1912 the tories used to be called the Conservative And Unionist Party.

[wannabedomesticgoddess]

My point was that people vote unionist because of what "side" they are on. But they dont realise the actual policies of the party. And I am sure a fair few are horrified at the tories right now, but will still vote unionist anyway.

[mathanxiety]

Yes the tribal voting pattern means there is a lot of tunnel vision wrt ideology. That is why voting Alliance is seen as such a poke in the eye by hardliners.

Claig:
Mansion House Dublin showing tricolour, EU flag and possibly Dublin flag or standard of the Lord Mayor of Dublin, or possibly Leinster flag. The Mansion House is the Lord Mayor's residence. Photo in wikipedia entry shows no tricolour.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.google.com/imgres?q=dublin+city+hall&start=141&num=10&um=1&hl=en&tbo=d&biw=1024&bih=651&tbm=isch&tbnid=OVhHsrB4UpWdBM:&imgrefurl=www.tripadvisor.fr/LocationPhotos-g186605-d216200-w2-City_Hall-Dublin_County_Dublin.html&docid=QOjGseaxt7PWWM&imgurl=media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/02/24/57/a4/dublin-city-hall.jpg&w=550&h=368&ei=bBzKULLQFIrWiwLo6oCoAw&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=171&vpy=354&dur=747&hovh=184&hovw=275&tx=132&ty=136&sig=101739206070370066827&page=8&tbnh=139&tbnw=208&ndsp=24&ved=1t:429,r:47,s:100,i:145" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Dublin City Hall showing EU flag plus tricolour and that green flag again.

AFAIK, there has never been any resistance to the flying of the EU flag.

The Union Jack flew over government and municipal and county government buildings in Ireland during the Queen's visit. There have been calls to fly more Union Jacks in order to keep Ireland an attractive place for British tourists. The relative lack of Union Jacks in Dublin is possibly due to a long held assumption that visitors from Britain are mostly Irish people returning to visit and not British people with no links to Ireland going on holiday or for wild weekends, etc.