Flag saga Northern Ireland

[SucksFakeSanta]

I am ashamed to be from NI.

Thank goodness there has been no loss of life, but some people have had terrifying experiences.

My DC are now scared of 'the flag people' after the route to my DTSs birthday dinner was blocked by a mob earlier this evening.

Seriously fed up with it all. Cannot imagine what it must be like to be working in retail or tourism at the minute.

[pickledsiblings]

'a portion of the Belfast community did not like to see that flag over City Hall'

What flag should fly over the City Hall?

[BoulevardOfBrokenSleep]

I am flattered by your description, TheCraicDealer, but I don't think a few more liberals looking on disapprovingly from Lisburn or Finaghy is really going to swing the balance back to sanity...!

At least, that's what I'm telling my conscience.

Plus, I quite like getting involved in politics and stuff, and in England I can do that without getting a petrol bomb through the door, or even a brick through the window. Mostly. Hopefully.

[Cachaca]

TheCraicDealer - I agree, and on that principle I moved back to N.I. 10 years ago to bring up my family here. But I have to say that if things moved backwards, I'd be out of here. I could stay on my own account, but, having grown up during the worst of the Troubles, I simply won't allow my children to be exposed to it.

You're right, of course - if we left, we'd be taking our liberal politics with us, as well as our children who have been brought up to despise bigotry, and dh's business, in an area of skill shortage, with his experience that he passes on to students and young workers. I'm sure there are lots of other families who are keeping a close eye on things. But I really hope it won't come to that, and so far it hasn't.

[ChablisLover]

Can I ask if the democratically elected Naomi long and other liberals who were elected in the last election should they the people not accept that this is the democracy they voted for?

Or may I suggest that there is so much voter apathy with the traditional unionist parties (and no one really touches the tuv) that there vote went down allowing the alliance party gains?

So, should the unionist population not got themselves to blame as they cannot take 5 minutes to cast a vote.

My opinion is that if Lisburn can do it on designated days why can't belfast?

Also, the sdlp and sf knew it would cause issues. Conal McDevitt nicely stepped this question on good morning ulster this morning.

Also, as someone said up thread- these hoods out rioting are not normal decent unionists. They are unemployed idiots who have nothing better to do but were brought up in that mindset. That's why we need to educate out children that we can all live together. Also, if they weren't there they wouldn't get hurt and it causes disruption not only to their own community but the province on a whole.

Btw, it is freezing outside, they must be determined! A shower of rain or snow would maybe see an end to it.

I'm also sick I trying to explain to my ds why there were people in the road on Friday when dh and him were dropping me off at Xmas do? I hoped I could bring him up without these issues arising.

Just re read this and it's truly a sit on the fence observation but I can really see both sides of the arguements but that these illegal protests and riots are not the way forward. The unionist leadership on both main parties are truly lacking leadership at this moment. And it appears sdlp and sf aren't saying much either.

[scarlettsmummy2]

The dup will have had their own agenda in the distribution of those leaflets. Peter Robinson will have known that this would have got him back his seat as Naomi Long will have lost the trust of her electorate. I personally think the alliance party are the only ones out of the lot of them with any credibility. I also so don't agree that there is political apathy amongst the working classes- it is them that have elected a DUP and SF majority! No one educated would actually vote DUP!

[ballroomblitz]

'as far as I can see loyalists have a very strong political voice & control over the psni. can you imagine the reaction from psni if this was republicans?'

Not true. You'll find the psni don't care what side is attacking them, they do their job, and kids raised by police officers are taught scum are scum and terrorists are terrorists no matter which 'side' of the coin they fall on. It doesn't matter if it's republican or loyalist hand that lobbed that petrol bomb at them.

[scarlettsmummy2]

Agree with ballroom, I don't think the psni would react any differently, the RUC may have, but I think they have moved on.

[mathanxiety]

'Negotiations to get the amount of days its flown increased.'
Couldn't they have foreseen all this, don't they know what the population think, don't they listen to people?'

They are listening to the people, Claig, and that is why the flag decision has been made. A majority (composed of members from both sides of the sectarian divide) voted for this arrangement wrt the flag after due and diligent consideration of opinions from both sides and solicitation of opinion from constituents.

This is all to do with East Belfast politics and intimidation of voters for future elections. The election of Naomi Long was a huge shock for the diehard Unionists. The moderates dared make their voice heard and had a viable candidate for the first time willing to stand up and be counted. This is both payback and a warning to those moderate voters.

[ChablisLover]

Scarlettsmummy - don't think that east belfast is being lined up for a peter Robinson return but instead Gavin Robinson the current belfast mayor. I think Peter is done after this term as first minister. Am actually surprised he held on after the iris affair and subsequent issues.

There must have been some voter apathy for the alliance to win the seat as east belfast is such a dup stronghold.

I think though that the majority did vote for the dup and sf - I'm still trying to figure that one out! But as someone online said we share power in Northern Ireland and we agreed to this in 1997 in the Good Friday agreement and again reiterated by the St. Andrews agreement.

Chris Lindsay's twitter feed is very informative if you need to know where the trouble is. Or any other local bbc journalist. Even barra best retweets their output.

Apparently there was a meeting before the vote where the public could see what the motion was all about. Apparently 3 people turned up so there really is great depth of feeling there then!

[wannabedomesticgoddess]

If the loyalist groups and political figures told the thugs to stop, then I believe that it would be probably be over pretty quickly.

Loyalist group leaders are telling them to stop.

Someone commented on the riots in London, and about the looting etc. The rioters in NI riot for riots sake. They are bored and its something to do. Low unemployment and few opportunities is leading to young men who have no reason to stay out of trouble.

Politicians (in my area anyway) canvass in areas where they know they are welcome. They go round the doors and ask "are your parents in?"

They are missing out on the next generation. Young people are not interested in party policies. IF they vote they vote for whoever their parents vote for. A lot dont bother because they cant see how it will change.

I couldnt tell you what any of the parties policies are on unemployment, creating jobs etc. Its just not touched on. Its still stuck in the past here.

Politicians arent reaching out to communities. They arent asking what we want. They have their own agenda.

[claig]

For how many years has the British flag flown all year round over that council building?

[claig]

'Loyalist group leaders are telling them to stop.'

If they mean what they say, then I think it will end quickly.

[Cachaca]

wannabe - I'm the same on the general policies of parties. Don't have a clue, except for knowing that the Unionist parties generally vote with the Tories, and get concessions on the occasions on which they have a casting vote.

Anyone who doesn't vote along tribal lines is effectively disenfranchised, because that's the only way that the majority is interested in voting.

[DioneTheDiabolist]

Claig, Math is right. The majority of people in Belfast want the flag to fly on designated days. It provides a more neutral political space and brings us into line with the majority of the rest of the UK and most of NI. The move to fly only on designated days should be seen as part of the normalization of NI politics.

Of course there was always going to be a bit of fuss, but the current debacle is a result of rabble rousing. Had that not happened, I doubt many would have even noticed.

[wannabedomesticgoddess]

Only if the thugs listen claig.

Theres a planned protest in my town early next week. We are dreading it.

On Stephen Nolan a few months ago there was a discussion about Universal Credit. Alex Maskey was the only one talking sense.

If I followed the inhereted voting patterns, Alex Maskey would be my last choice. But it seems, that on the subject of anything not related to NI politics, unionists are in bed with the tories.

[scarlettsmummy2]

SF do often say sensible things, hence why they are getting so much of the nationalist vote. The unionists are just in a total mess.

[claig]

Dione, I agree that the majority probably don't want teh flag to fly all the time, but here the majority want tougher sentencing, but they don't give it to us. The majority are against austerity, but we they don't give us what we want.

Is it worth it over the flag issue which presumably has flown for many years, when doing it causes a greater divide than letting it fly?

[Stokes]

I'm from Dublin, living in Beflast and I've always stuck up for Belfast, and said how I'd never seen any trouble, the vast majority of people are sensible etc. I love Belfast and plan to make it my long term home.

Last night the car I was in was attacked, I'm not exaggerating when I say I'm lucky to be alive, that a brick missed my head by inches. Not a mention of this on the news, which leads me to assume there have been plenty of other similar attacks.

This is all over a flag. I can understand people wanting the union flag to fly every day. I can understand people wanting it to never fly over City Hall at all. I can understand political movement or peaceful protest to support either of those views. What I don't understand is rioting, violence and attacks in the name of this cause. The people out there aren't rioting over some political hardship, they are scum rioting because they have an excuse to do so.

[BoulevardOfBrokenSleep]

"Is it worth it over the flag issue which presumably has flown for many years, when doing it causes a greater divide than letting it fly?"

Even in NI, it is possible to be pissed off about something without rioting about it, you know. It's possible- indeed probable - that a lot of NI folks feel a building with a Union flag on the top is somewhere they're not welcome. If said building is the seat of their elected representatives, then that's a problem, innit.

[claig]

Stokes, glad you are OK. Hope it ends very quickly.
I am sure that these thugs are frightened of older loyalist thugs and if they put the word out to end it, then these thugs would end it in a second.

[BoulevardOfBrokenSleep]

So, you have to base your actions on what is right/democratic/whatever; you can't make decisions based on what will cause fewest riots. Otherwise the fuckwits win.

[BoulevardOfBrokenSleep]

X-post with Stokes - glad you're OK.

[claig]

Boulevard, what is the status of Northern Ireland at the moment? Is it British?
How long has that flag flown there for? Does changing it upset the loyalists who think that British ties are being weakened?