Flag saga Northern Ireland

[SucksFakeSanta]

I am ashamed to be from NI.

Thank goodness there has been no loss of life, but some people have had terrifying experiences.

My DC are now scared of 'the flag people' after the route to my DTSs birthday dinner was blocked by a mob earlier this evening.

Seriously fed up with it all. Cannot imagine what it must be like to be working in retail or tourism at the minute.

[claig]

' internment in the 1970s was very common.'

but what percentage of men form loyalist communities? And what about republican communities and their families, are they saying that less republican men were locked up?

There was no rioting before teh vote made by politicians and now there are people on our news telling us that there is a moral breakdown in loyalist communities due to men having been locked up years ago.

I don't believe that that is the cause of teh rioting.

[bureni]

No idea of percentages but thousands were locked up which made matters a lot worse at the time as well as being illegal. The rioting has nothing to do with prisoners at all, its all about flags and always has been.

[drmummmsy]

claig - i know where you're coming from. Often the cause of rioting is non-political, it's frequently recreational and anyone who tries to make these thugs out to be politically protesting is incredibly naive.

[whitesocksblackshoes]

totally agree there drmummmsy

[JingleBellaTheGymnast]

Why was the option for ROI flag and Union Flag flying together rejected? Anyone know?

[WayneDeer]

Claig

I don't think members of working class loyalist or even unionist communities are suffering from a moral breakdown but they are certainly experiencing a shift from the norm.
There is a strong feeling that working class loyalists do not have a political voice and that is concerning.
The unionist parties have relied on voting based upon religion which has been effectively the status quo for decades in NI. They have pushed forward with ideas that aren't supported in loyalist areas and rather than trying to explain or modify their ideas to represent their voters they have ploughed onward relying on the loyalists having no other voting option.
At the same time young working class protestant boys are leaving school with fewer qualifications than their working class catholic counterparts...in time you can see that this might not lead to a good overall picture.

No voice and no prospects....looks incendiary for future times

It would be easy for the DUP UUP to make an effort. It doesn't feel as though those are the votes that they wish to court however.

[Northernexile]

JingleBella, I actually think that option would have been perceived as even more riot worthy by the loyalist knuckle-draggers out there unfortunately.

[WayneDeer]

I think the joint flag idea was the least favoured option

The Alliance Party wanted something that everyone would feel they were represented by. In feedback it was felt that flying the RofI flag on a council building would inflame the situation further and alienate and make more people uncomfortable.
It was also a decision made based on the views of the employees of Belfast City Council.

[axure]

In my English hometown the flag of St George is flown at the town hall. I would be happy to see St Patrick's flag on civic buildings here in NI on 365 days.
I would be totally opposed to tri-colours being flown in this part of the UK.
Agree that the rioters are just dead-legs who see the issue as a green light to cause mayhem, they don't give a toss about the cost to local business and the bad image it portrays across the world. Who would want to come here?

[claig]

There was someone on Radio 4 News World at One saying that they believe that loyalist groups are behind stirring this up.

That seems to make sense. The vote by the politicians or councillors or whatever they were is political and I think it is highly likely that these riots are politically driven in response rather than just thugs rioting. I don't think it is like our thugs on the mainland who loot to get TVs and DVDs.

Flags are political and negotiations to fly it on more days etc are political moves.

I don't think that a Northern Ireland flag solution would have worked becauase this is about a perceived threat to Britishness (and its British flag).

If the loyalist groups and political figures told the thugs to stop, then I believe that it would be probably be over pretty quickly.

[drmummmsy]

I can tell you first hand that violence is orchestrated by leading criminals loyalists who are in bed with elected unionists - as far as I can see loyalists have a very strong political voice & control over the psni. can you imagine the reaction from psni if this was republicans?

[WayneDeer]

these were posted all over loyalist communities by the DUP and UUP

Not their best work

[claig]

I'm not an expert on English grammar, but shouldn't that be "A shared future for whom?"

Pedants' corner would be able to decide.

[SantaIAmSoFuckingRock]

no drmummsy you missed my point. you suggested police officers needed to be more brutal with the rioters. i asked if we really wanted to cause more resentment between police and rioters and end up with more police officer's being hurt. you said the rioters wouldn't get hurt if they weren't rioting in teh first place you either missed my point completely or just ignored it in order to repeat your desire to a bit of police brutality.

[SantaIAmSoFuckingRock]

to see a bit of police brutality.

[SucksFakeSanta]

I agree that police being heavy handed is not the answer. It would only fan the flames and increase violent behaviour. I only saw one female police officer at the scene of the protest I ran into last night, and can imagine it would have been extremely intimidating and frightening for her. I have every admiration for the PSNI officers trying to do their jobs in such difficult circumstances.

I've been thinking of A Christmas Carol over the last few days:
?There are many things from which I might have derived good, by which I have not profited, I dare say,' returned the nephew. 'Christmas among the rest. But I am sure I have always thought of Christmas time, when it has come round -apart from the veneration due to its sacred name and origin, if anything belonging to it can be apart from that- as a good time; a kind, forgiving, charitable, pleasant time; the only time I know of, in the long calendar of the year, when men and women seem by one consent to open their shut-up hearts freely, and to think of people below them as if they really were fellow-passengers to the grave, and not another race of creatures bound on other journeys."

[drmummmsy]

nope definitely recognised and got your point, but disagreed with it.

yes police need to be more heavy handed with those who are rioting. if retaliation attacks on psni officers are blamed on heavy handed police tactics on those who shouldn't have been there in the first instance then it effectively absolves rioting criminals of all responsibility for any of it!

i could of course say that you're missing my point, but i realise that you have read and understood it, but choose to disagree.

[SantaIAmSoFuckingRock]

so you think it's ok if police are attacked as long as the right people get the blame? is that what you are saying? you think it's ok to go ahead with a course of action, knowing that it will increase the risk of harm to innocent people?

[DioneTheDiabolist]

Claig, you asked "did no politicians warn that the vote might end in violence?". Unfortunately, the politicians bear quite a bit of responsibility for this violence.

Here's what happened:
Belfast City Council's Policy and Resource Committee voted 11 to 9 toremove the Union flag from Belfast City Hall in order to make it a more neutral space.
Beforehand, there had to be a full council vote.
Sinn Fein and the SDLP supported the removal.
Ulster Unionists and the DUP opposed the removal.
(So far, so predictable).
The Alliance Party held the balance of power. They disagreed to the total removal. They proposed a compromise position whereby the flag would be flown over City Hall on designated days (like most government buildings in the UK).
The compromise was accepted by Sinn Fein and SDLP.

THEN (and this is where it gets a bit fucked up),
Both of the main Unionist Parties distributed up to 40,000 leaflets, mostly in working class areas, notifying them of the upcoming council vote and blaming the Alliance party for the removal of the flag.

Since then, the homes of Alliance party members have been attacked, their offices have been set on fire and death threats have been issued to their leaders. Violent demonstrations have appeared on our streets.

[claig]

Thanks, Dione.

What are the loyalist political parties saying about it on the media now?

[TinyPawz]

The reason for the vote was that a portion of the Belfast community did not like to see that flag over City Hall.

The elected politicians who started the ball rolling in this were doing what their constituents wanted. The Alliance party stepped in and brokered a compromise which was voted on and passed.

Living in a democracy means that often times someone wins.

[DioneTheDiabolist]

Both main Unionist parties are now wholly condemning the violence with the leader of the Ulster Unionists calling for an end to the demonstrations altogether. The leader of the Progressive Unionist Party (a smaller party with paramilitary links) has called for those using violence to be expelled from loyalist organizations.

The Alliance Party has refused to take part in talks about flying the flag over Stormont. You can't blame them. They were the voice of reason in this and found themselves the target of the mob.

Sinn Fein and the SDLP have called for a cessation of violence.

Hopefully the calls for an end to the violence will be heeded, but I fear it will take some time. Our Unionist politicians, seeing that they would lose the vote, roused a rabble and immediately lost control of it.

I am embarrassed, disgusted and ashamed of our elected representatives right now.

[TinyPawz]

*else wins

[TheCraicDealer]

It really depresses me when I hear people go, "oh this is why I left, best thing I ever did". They're generally the ones that might have contributed to our society by not behaving like bigoted morons. Instead they leave and take their degrees, liberal views and ability to make informed choices with them.