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News

Freddy Starr ???

45 replies

minibmw2010 · 26/10/2012 22:04

Why on earth, given the conversation subject, is Freddy Starr holding a child by the hand in all the interviews on the news tonight ???!! He's standing outside what I assume is his house holding hands with a small girl I assume to be his daughter.

OP posts:
NanaNina · 27/10/2012 00:29

PanonHigh I am not accepting the notion of the "sins of the fathers" in child sexual abuse. I have worked in child protection in a LA for a total of 30 years and have carried out hundreds of investigations over the years into the abuse of children, be it physical or sexual abuse or neglect and obviously the emotional abuse that goes alongside these crimes.

I have also been part of a working party in collabortion with the NSPCC for some 4 years between 1988 and 1992 that was set up once child sexual abuse became an issue in the mid 80's. We carried out joint investigations into chld sexual abuse and yes the perpetrator was almost always the father, grandfather, step father, mothers boy friend, or older brother, possible uncles and close male friends visiting the home. Meticulous records were kept and it was apparent that in approx 90% of cases, the perpetrator was once a victim. We were not naieve enough to take their word for this. We conducted rigorous interviews and conducted a comprehensive assessment of the perpetrator's background. It was difficult for proof to be obtained as of course sexual abuse crimes largely went unreported. However I believe that in that specialist team we had sufficent professional wisdom to make accurate assessments.

You say that "it is a technique (?) that sexual offenders offer with no evidence to back it up. I would question the use of the word "technique" in this context but more importantly I would be interested in the evidence that you have for making this assertion.

Of course I undestand that it is of no consequence or comfort to the victim of sexual abuse. I was promoted to a manager in 1992 and initiated working with adult survivors of sexual abuse, in collaboration with the Probation Service. We offered groups for women to assist them to gain confidence from meeting with others who had suffered a similar fate. We also offered one to one visits with women who were not comfortable in a group. Of course we wouldn't be crass enough to be talking to survivors about the backgrounds of the perpetrators, though many women brought it up themselves, and knew that the male relative/friend who had abused them had been abused themselves. We did not encourage any emotions from the women that sought to protect the perpetrator, but we were surprised at just how many of the survivors knew the history of sexual abuse in their extended families, and we learned a great deal from this, which we put together with the work we had done with NSPCC with perpetrators and this was published by the NSPCC (Feb 1994)

Incidentally though fewer in number I have known cases of women who were victims also becoming perpetrators as adults.

I would also say that in the course of my work I saw many cases of physical abuse/neglect on children, but I can honestly say that I never saw a case of evil parents. I saw young emotionally immature young people who had not been properly nurtured and cared for in their childhoods becoming parents, and hence having no other model of parenting. These parents had no family support, financial difficulties, learning dificulties and mental health problems amd had been brought up to believe that domestic violence was the norm. The only time I saw child abuse out of this category was step parents who resented the step children and neglected or abused them, but this was very rare.

So please don't patronise me without knowing about my background, and do supply me with your evidence for your assertions. I would be most interested.

PanonHigh · 27/10/2012 00:33

I don't know Old. You're right of course - often it's normalised, so of course an element of empathy is absent. Genetics? There appears no evidence, outside of the possiblity of inherited compulsive behaviours. But that doesn't explain a lot.

One big thing I hang onto is that inappropriate sexual behaviour is learned, and so can be unlearned.

PanonHigh · 27/10/2012 00:38

Nana - I am switching off right now as I am really tired, and I don't want to do your post anything other than a respectful answer. Not a hurried one. I wasn't patronising you though, just adding a note of caution. Your post is intersting, to me, so I'll get back to you tomorow, def. night.

OldLadyKnowsNothing · 27/10/2012 00:44

I wonder how those dc turned out, they'd be in their late teens/early 20s by now. I didn't see the case to the end, and I'll never forget them.

NanaNina · 27/10/2012 23:25

PanonHigh - having trouble find the evidence for your assertions or maybe you are just tired again...................

PanonHigh · 28/10/2012 12:38

Well, NanaNina, you can spare me your snipey little attitude to begin with. Some of us have fairly full on and involved family, professional and social lives, rather than sitting on the internet, as v simple searches evidence. ( I couldn?t help notice the wildly mistaken ?opinion? you were giving on another thread about the Equalities Act, which someone who knows a bit more corrected you over. I know about this stuff as I currently have a managerial responsibility for it, and there is no need to ?argue a case for mental illness/disability' ? it?s there writ large in legislation.) So I?d be kindly requesting you withdraw your low-quality sarcasm?

Specifically the bit I was wishing to,respectfully , urge a note of caution was your assertion that ? the sins of the fathers' visited on the sons" (don't know who said that) but what I am trying to say is almost always perpetrators were once victims.? ? from your 30 years experience.

You are referring back to work you contributed to, 20-22 years ago. This was a time when I was a facilitator on multi-agency groups for men who had sexually abused adult women and children. That was a fairly long stint, and then returned to a different group as ?lead? facilitator 2004 ? 2008. I also have two articles published in the past 10 years in our professional journal, under my own name, ( rather than as part of a collective back in what is now considered the Dark Ages of sex abuse enquiry.) I also currently supervise staff who supervise sex offenders of both genders.

No, I don?t know you at all, but that isn?t a pre-requisite for adding a word of caution to your quote above. The assessment skills and interventions have moved on massively in the last 20 years, and when me and old colleagues meet up we sometimes cringe at the sort of work we were doing in hindsight. It?s fine to invest in your colleagues experience, at the time, and application to task, but it doesn?t mean they were right. Just v well motivated.

Regarding abusers experience of their own abuse, of course there can be no exactness about quantifying this. But, four things: at the point of arrest and prep for court, defendants will search around for anything which would lead to a mitigation (use of technique) ? the authenticity of that mitigation comes under question when:
a. post sentence they acknowledge, sometimes covertly sometimes overtly, that it was made up with a purpose,
b. when they refer to the alleged abuser who may still be abusing but wish to do nothing about providing their details,
c. when working with abusers on their developmental ?life maps? ( which was the subject of my second article) their own abuse rarely gets a mention, even when this glaring omission is prompted. In a group of 10 men the average for unprompted ?disclosure? is between 2-3, and
d. they exhibit poor consistency in interview compared with people who have been abused.

Overall, I am referring to contemporary research and practice. You are referring to a time when, relatively speaking, we still thought the sun orbited the earth.

Well that went on longer than I thought it would!

UltraBOF · 28/10/2012 14:15

All this comparing of professional knobs is most amusing.

PanonHigh · 28/10/2012 14:26

yes, I agree it appears a bit knobbish BOF, ( and I was a bit reluctant to digress on stuff I haven't previously done so) but in this rarefied atmosphere I'd thought it a bit important to indicate one is just not 'making stuff up' iyswim.

PixieHot · 28/10/2012 14:37

It can be useful to others to state your credentials though, as it enables them to evaluate what you have said in the context of your experience etc.

ToothbrushThief · 28/10/2012 14:45

Perhaps a bit of professional respect would help the debate? Rather than snippy remarks at one another?

PanonHigh · 28/10/2012 14:58

Getting back to the OP....it probably is some sort of gambit to try to reassure folks he can be trusted round children. But that would be cutting no ice with the people doing the investigating, fortunately.

LineRunner · 28/10/2012 15:07

I think what you posted about your career and research was very interesting, PanonHigh.

I do think Freddy Starr is now all gambit and no substance. I would have thought a dignified silence would have been better.

I see Paul Gadd has been arrested.

NanaNina · 28/10/2012 15:58

Yes I hate this competitive professionalism too and never usually indulge in it, unless I feel provoked. I don't wish to engage with you anymore PH. However after retiring from the LA in 2004 I did work on a freelance basis and only finished that work in 2009. SO I think your assertion that I am "going back" 20-22 years is not valid.

However I think Toothbrushthief is right - making snipey remarks at each other is lowering the tone of the debate and I admit to contributing to that, and is annoying to others I am sure.

Darkesteyes · 28/10/2012 16:00

Just caught up with the news that they have arrested Glitter. Hope he starts talking. Ugh makes my skin crawl.

ZombieArmsDragOnTheFloor · 28/10/2012 16:04

I heard that they had arrested a "former pop star" this morning and virtually laughed out loud when they said Gary Glitter. A total non-surprise.

I do wonder if he could ever get a fair trial though.

PanonHigh · 28/10/2012 16:06

NN - well don't refuse to engage with me anymore but then refer to me immediately afterwards.
yes I withdraw my provoked snippyness too. It doesn't help anyone.

LineRunner · 28/10/2012 16:17

I find both of your research credentials interesting if you link to publications. Honest. Smile

PanonHigh · 28/10/2012 17:16

LR - if you google 'abused become abusers percentage, or statistics' you'll find lots of research. Most of it starts off testing the hypothosis that there is a strong link, to find it isn't so strong as was thought.

NanaNina · 28/10/2012 19:50

LineRunner. The publication I talked about was published by NSPCC but was a joint venture between social services and NSPCC and myself and the sw from NSPCC are credited as the authors. It was in 1994 (so yes sometime ago) and I haven't thought about it for years so don't know where it is. I will however contact the NSPCC to see if they have a copy.

LineRunner · 28/10/2012 19:58

Nina I expect there's a web site link I can find.

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