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University suspends lecturer in racism row

100 replies

Caligula · 24/03/2006 12:06

Gosh. What a bizarre man. \link{http://education.guardian.co.uk/racism/story/0,,1738570,00.html\guardian story here}

OP posts:
PeachyClair · 25/03/2006 10:07

This (the idea of suitability to lecture) is actually relevant discusion for me at the mo. As you know probably I am doing a degree in world religion. One of course mates id planning on a Phd / lecturing career yet he is a fundamentalist Christian- to the extent that his personal website decries me in very angry terms for 'not believing in the truth and being a blasphemous idiotic monstrosity on humanity that does not the true way'. This man is the worst Christian I know- he has 2 year old tantrums if asked to work in a group (I don't do groups! I ahte them- shouted- stamps then storms off) and when asked to accept a latecomer to the group, stood in the canteen yelling 'I ahte them! I hate them!' repeatedly. When (an also Christian} friend pointed out he was intolerant he just said 'I am bloody intolerant! I can be Jesus wants me to be'

?????

He's also extremely Racist (heput a Shema (sp) on his door during a Jewish phase, and when it went mising it wasn't the Hindu flatmate who'd asked not to have it there in the first place, it must have been 'Muslims').

It really concerns me that he could have influence over first year students who I agree are impressionable (research show that cults target new students for just that reason). Nothing I can do though without making myself look an idiot; I just hope the lecturers have enough gumption to spot him.

PeachyClair · 25/03/2006 10:11

tamaman- interesting because as far as I am aware, there are 5 of us up for possible firsts: only 1 is male, the one previously mentioned.

It would be interesting if that research is indeed valid to see a breakdown by course. At our Uni (which doesn't offer all degrees obv) there seems to be a number of male dominated courses (engineering, games design) and very few female dominated ones, which may slant it. However there are of course courses in child development etc at other Unis and I don't now, but suspect they might balance it.

tamaman · 25/03/2006 10:12

That's really awful, Peachy, and I can completely see why you'd be concerned. Really unpleasant for you at a personal level, too. I am still grappling with this whole notion of freedom of speech in this context. What if you were being lectured by David Irving in a history degree? Would that be acceptable because of his rights? It wouldn't, clearly, so there do have to be some limits somewhere.

DominiConnor · 25/03/2006 10:12

speedymama, the rates are of course averages, not assertions of deterministic outcomes. They do omit factors that you or I would insist upon. This includes some normalisation of where people start from, not just where they finish. In America, black people, especially boys are not on average served well by the education system.

Your British experience does not shock me a much as it should. I see anecdotal evidence of racism and sexism at schools that would get a commercial enterprise crushed by sheer weight of lawsuits. My (white) wife had artsgrads pushing her to do "caring" subjects, which apparently physics is not, but biology (cutting up animals) is.

I think equally damaging is the lower expectations for various groups. My experience, though less explicit than yours was that my teachers thought as the son of a manual labourer I had ideas well above my station. They said this explicitly. We weren't friends.

My firm put people into banks mostly at PhD/MSc level, and as it happens a majority of the people we've placed aren't white males. I also wrote both our equal opportunity policies. The long rambling never to be read one we are required to have, and the real one which says "we do this for the money, we don't care".
My perspective is that highly competitive environments are less racist & sexist, and investment banks are the least bigoted of any employer I've encountered. But on only 5% of our database is female, we of course both know that women who do hard PhDs aren't exactly the majority. And yes we do try to get women in, and that does frankly include encouraging them to be less girly.

As for the Bell curve itself, I have a big issue with anything that calls black people a single group from a genetic perspective. Any measure of "black" people in this way can only sensibly measure social factors.
However I am wary of your position that it was done by white people, so isn't valid. Again I worry about selection on data that one wants to be true.

I also am uncomfortable about hyphen-achievers.
If someone did good work, then I don't care about their gender or race. Indeed I just don't like teaching as an aspect of social engineering.
My ancestry is Irish, and we were treated far worse by the English than black people ever were.

But I despise that sort of competitive victimhood.

The history I did at school was in part a list of all the bad things the British did to others and each other. Indeed it was only in later life I learned that slavers were helped by locals, and that my ancestors had screwed up big time.

The lesson I took away from learning of imperialism, famine, slavery et al is that people do this shit because they can. Religion and race may make them more vicious, but ultimately the trick is not to be the done to.
Thus to improve the lot of groups that are under-attaining you need to make sure they do tough, useful subjects and that you do that well.

A bit of black history may well be good, as long as it is not a celebration but warts and all.

A better, and more useful approach would be to take various events and analyse them from different perspectives. There are any number of situations where both black and white people genuinely beieved they were the good guys. But I think we both know that doesn't happen much in BH.

tamaman · 25/03/2006 10:14

The degree course I was talking about was Neuroscience, so not an obvious female-orientated one. I would be interested to see a full breakdown!

PeachyClair · 25/03/2006 10:23

'My experience, though less explicit than yours was that my teachers thought as the son of a manual labourer I had ideas well above my station. They said this explicitly. We weren't friends.'

I am sorry that you experienced that. As the daughter of an ex-alkie and a depressive from a bad estate in a sink town, I have had nothing but confidence shown in my abilities and future.

zippipetitspieds · 25/03/2006 10:52

I thought investment banks were notorious for their discriminatory practices ..maybe they just aren't much good at PR

tamaman · 25/03/2006 10:54

I'm not clear what this means: "But on only 5% of our database is female, we of course both know that women who do hard PhDs aren't exactly the majority. And yes we do try to get women in, and that does frankly include encouraging them to be less girly." I'm not sure I want to understand either, but I am really hoping that you mean that most women who do "hard" PhDs (what are easy PhDs then?) don't actually have any interest in banking. Certainly in my experience most women who do PhDs do them because they love the subject and are academic. Men often do them for these reasons, but also because they are far more likely than woman to see them as a transferable skill that they can use to get a highly paid job.

The Bell Curve isn't just invalid because it was done by white people, it's not as simple as that. It was however done by white people who set out to prove their hypothesis rather than to test it, and their use of statistics has been disputed by almost all authoritiative people in the field.

flutterbee · 25/03/2006 11:32

Thats it give the racist bigot some fully paid time off, that will teach him. Angry How can a man who must be fairly intelligent hold such views, it really amazes me and it shocks me when people actually stick up for him, freedom of speech etc...

Pruneau · 25/03/2006 11:52

Yes, but flutterbee, that's what freedom of speech is. Hateful views, and I don;t want to hear them - but then someone might not want to hear my 'hateful' views (in their opinion) on something like being pro-choice. I would still expect to be able to state my position though.

It's whether he uses the platform of his job to disseminate his politics.

I knew someone at Oxford - a lecturer/researcher - who had similar views to DC regarding women (at least I think they were similar, DC is a little muddled-sounding). Unfortunately he stated them once too often and it contributed to his having to resign.

koolkat · 25/03/2006 12:23

DC - may I just pick up on point. You say "My perspective is that highly competitive environments are less racist & sexist, and investment banks are the least bigoted of any employer I've encountered".

I beg to difffer. I worked as a City lawyer for many years. I also had many friends who worked in merchant banks, most were female.

I do have a very foreign looking name, but thanks to my rather posh English accent, public school education, very pale skin (I am Caucasian) Masters Degree and multiple language ability I never had any problems getting jobs in the City.

However, my non-white friends had serious problems and so did my very large size 22 female Irish friend. I also have a male friend who is one of the most intelligent people I know who also happens to be very large and he was sacked from one merchant bank due to his size and was constantly bullied at a very well known fund management company again due to his large appetite and size.

The City does NOT like people who do not match it's image. I was disgusted at the constant ramapage of sexist/chauvinist/racist jokes made by my male lawyer colleagues. Even more shocking was seeing young impressionable females join in the fun because they thought it was the only way to get promoted and worse still the only way to get a husband !!

I was personally made fun of because I did not support the England team in a World Cup match - and that's just flipping football ! Imagine the treatment you get if you say or behave in any other way that does not go with the City's image.

In fact the Mile Square of the City of London is the most conformist region of the world. If you don't conform, "you are fired" Grin

I will never ever go back to working in the City. I miss the money and nothing else. I don't wish to conform to the City's standards because it's standards are not very different to those of C17th colonialist/merchants running a slave trade from Africa.

Caligula · 25/03/2006 14:09

I don't really understand what "girly" is, but I presume it means feminine.

Why should girls be less girly? What precisely is wrong with being girly, feminine, or whatever you want to call it.

Surely this argument is old hat - we don't want to change ourselves, we want to change the institutions and society which demands that we try and be more like men. No thanks, change the institutions so that they can cope with half of humanity.

OP posts:
koolkat · 25/03/2006 14:27

Caligula -

DC is so very very wrong about that too. The "girls" who behave in accordance to the male stereotype of a "girlie" are the most popular in the City.

The bulldogs like me who tend to be business-like, act a bit more "male" and are down to earth don't get the male attention required. I had a friend who worked as an Oil Analyst in a top US merchant bank in the City who told me that the female traders in her bank were constantly called "dykes" - not behind their backs even. the name calling happened right in front of their faces.

Some men in the City cannot deal with the fact that some women are as intelligent and can do any job they can do even better, so if you are good at what you do you MUST be a lesbian. I was once called a lesbian because I refused the unsolicited attention of a partucualr man who was senior to me.

Sex/race equality in the City ?? It's a dream !!

DominiConnor · 25/03/2006 21:17

Koolkat is right, I was imprecise. We deal with putting smart people into banks. The City has a number of roles for which “people skills” are the important thing and being “girlie” can work at junior levels, in things like sales.

But not for our people. I’ve experience behaviour from giggling fits, standing up in our review of the defects of their PhD and screaming (yes really). One kept putting her hands on me, my cold stare failed utterly.

As for being conformist, I’m not sure what other environments KoolKat compares it with. I’ve been a manual labourer and that was not even remotely tolerant, journalism was essentially a framework of sniping and bullying, computers could involve terrible intellectual snobbery and bullying, and my wife is a lawyer, and Koolkat hits upon an interesting truth that a “good” voice is essential there. I see that a simply a different from of prejudice, not a superior one. Not a lot of senior black lawyers are there ?

I going to get shot at for this, but here goes.
There is bigotry and favouritism in any human organisation. That has a moral dimension, but simple economics tells us it is inefficient, and in an environment where the only factors are luck and quality of people, poor staff selection will be fatal.
Investment banks are viciously competitive, so if you don't pick the best people you get screwed big time.
I was careful to say "least bigoted", not claiming it's absence at all. The area that is worst is of course fund management. Who are almost all "chaps". Stupid white men, the head fund manager at one household name I worked with had a degree in English. God alone knows what basis he managed funds on, he explained it to me once. I thought it was a wind up, one of my colleagues laughed.
But that's because British people like "chaps" to manage money. The banks own money is managed by a rainbow of races. One major bank is getting hassle from elements of my community because it hires "too many" French people with names like Mohammed.
White male British fund managers stuggle even to do as well as random. I mean that very literally. If you were to recite a list of stocks to your 5 year old and ask them to pick good ones he would outperform more than 80% of fund managers. Of the remaining 20%, 80% would perform worse next yet and so on. That's hard statistical fact, verified by people with qualifications up to and including Nobel prizes.
That being said, almost all equity fund managers of all races and sexes are crap.

But mostly, it's not unlike football. Someone who regards black people as parodies of humans, is quite happy to pay to support a football team that is lead by them.

So why the big law cases ?
Some people in the City are grade one shits, with clearly expressed psychological disorders backed by aggression and feral cunning. Some even compete with journalists for personal issues.
It is also the case that if you sue for unfair dismissal, the amount of award is capped at a pathetically low level, not enough to make a banker commit career suicide.
But if you sue for race/sex you have no such limit, and frequently the bank will settle rather than expose itself to that level of embarrassment.

Also the media, if it can't find a celebrity will just assume that anything with a big number and sex is important. I know the detail of some cases, and whereas the banks in question did wrong, if it had been anywherer else no one would have heard of it and the settlement would have been less than 5K.

The biggest reason for the cases is that there are black/female/gay people earning big money. You can't sue for 10 million quid being a wronged checkout assistant.
There are black millionaries made every year in the City. Not the "right" number by any view of fairness, but I believe there are more rich “minorities” coming out of the City than any other part of our society.

koolkat · 25/03/2006 21:46

DC - the City is not very different in attitude to the manual labour environment that you describe. It's very much tits out for the lads.

That is exactly the problem. City professionals are meant to be better educated and more intelligent than the average manual labourer, but in my experience they are not. That is where my disappointment with the City comes in. I thought I would be working with the cream of society, intelligent, well-educated, well-read, well-mannered. How naive I was. Well-read ? The vast majority had never even read a decent novel in their whole lives. History, geography, politics, nothing ! If you sound well-read and have an interest in politics/history like me, they think you are a weirdo nerd. That is what I mean by conformist.

What you say about girlies only being employed in the menial jobs in banks does not apply to law firms I am afraid. You meet loads of female lawyers and partners who do nothing but giggle when they socialise with the men and get totally pissed out of their minds.

As for motherhood. What really did it for me was the most senior female partner in my firm coming back to work, full-time, 3 days after giving birth.

So, in summary, it is good to be giggly, girlie, showing legs and tits when you are getting pissed silly with your male colleagues, but the minute you become pregnant and have a child, you still have to PROVE you can compete with the men. You have to leave your newborn in the arms of a 24/7 nanny to show you have balls !!

I am so tempted to go into the lobby of a City law firm and breastfeed my toddler. I wonder how long it will take the security guard to call the police for my lewd act ?

Ellbell · 25/03/2006 21:59

Full Leeds University statement about Ellis below. I think they've thought carefully about what they can and can't 'charge' him with, which is why it has taken some time.

The University of Leeds has today begun disciplinary proceedings against Dr Frank Ellis, a lecturer in Russian and Slavonic Studies.

The details of the disciplinary process must remain a private matter between the University, as employer, and Dr Ellis, as employee. But I can confirm that we are looking into three issues.

The first is that, in publicising his personal views on race and other matters, Dr Ellis has acted in breach of our equality and diversity policy, and in a way that is wholly at odds with our values. The University’s values are rooted in the values of a civilised, 21st-century society; and they include the values of diversity, inclusiveness, equal opportunity, community and mutual respect. It is explicitly stated in our Charter that the University is proud to be a multi-cultural community.

The second issue is that, in publicising his personal views on race, Dr Ellis has recklessly jeopardised the fulfilment of the University’s obligations under the Race Relations (Amendment) Act 2000. As a public body, the University is required under that Act to promote good relations between people of different racial groups. That is a requirement we are happy to accept.

Thirdly, Dr Ellis has failed to comply with reasonable requests given to him by his employer. For example, we asked him to apologise for the distress which his remarks on race and other matters have caused to many people inside and outside the University. He has not agreed to do that. Nor has he given us an undertaking to make it clear in public that scientific questions about the differences if any between different racial groups are questions which lie a long way from his own area of academic expertise as a lecturer in Russian and Slavonic Studies. And he has failed to give us an undertaking that he will make no further public comments suggesting that one racial group is inherently inferior (or superior) to another unless there is no possibility whatsoever that anyone hearing or reading his comments might reasonably associate him with the University of Leeds. The University is clearly and publicly distancing itself from Dr Ellis’s comments on race.

Given the seriousness of the issues I have been outlining, the Vice-Chancellor, Professor Michael Arthur, has decided to suspend Dr Ellis from his duties while the disciplinary process is underway. Professor Arthur saw Dr Ellis this afternoon to tell him of that decision. I must emphasise that suspension is not in itself a disciplinary penalty.

The disciplinary process might take some time to complete –certainly weeks rather than days, and perhaps months rather than weeks. The University intends to make no further public comment on the case until the conclusion of that disciplinary process.

DominiConnor · 26/03/2006 13:51

Koolkat, I understand a lawyer who gets to see when things go wrong might get that impression. But it's not true. I've done 15 years in the Square mile not watching it from a whites-only law firm.
Banks are culturally very different from banks, can't think of many outfits that are more different.

As for the relative levels of education, that's not only wrong, it's not even rubbish. It's some fantasy by an arts graduate who belives that if you haven't done classics you can't read.

You are comfusing lawyers with less bigoted outfits. Yes, they are quite likely to get stressed at the sight of a breast feeding mother.
At the City firms I've worked at, they'd find you a room, and that's a fact not a supposition.

monkeytrousers · 26/03/2006 14:00

\link{http://education.guardian.co.uk/higher/comment/story/0,,1729722,00.html\another link}

monkeytrousers · 26/03/2006 14:10

The Bell Curve?? That has been widely refuted, hasn't it?

Just catching up..

monkeytrousers · 26/03/2006 14:13

"David Williams, of the anti-fascist organisation Searchlight, said Dr Ellis was well-known on the far-right circuit. "He has been putting these ideas forward for around 15 years. These sort of opinions are very dangerous if unchallenged because they provide a veneer of respectability for outright racism and intimidation.""

This is just common sense, isn't it? Of course he should be suspended and investigated.

monkeytrousers · 26/03/2006 14:18

Hi Dominic, could you explain what you mean by this, "We picked the school for the gang of two because they appreciated that boys need diffrent methods of education than girls." Do you mean your children?

monkeytrousers · 26/03/2006 14:28

"I do seem to remember reading stats to show that women get fewer firsts nationally than men do. They also get fewer thirds, I think. Not sure what that tells us, tbh. "

Haha, that's a good one Frogs. I've come across that one recently while researching my dissertation - it's apparently because girls aren't 'risk takers' in the same way boys are, but 'slow and steady'.

This confuses me actually, because it's now widely accepted that girls have been statistically 'bettering' their male peers on an academic level and this has been 'blamed' on the feminisation of the education system - a system that suited men boys very well until girls came into it...

monkeytrousers · 26/03/2006 14:43

Koolkat I'd recommend this book \link{http://books.guardian.co.uk/reviews/politicsphilosophyandsociety/0,6121,1681421,00.html/Female Chauvinist Pigs}

monkeytrousers · 26/03/2006 14:44

\link{http://books.guardian.co.uk/reviews/politicsphilosophyandsociety/0,6121,1681421,00.html\Female Chauvinist Pigs}

ruty · 26/03/2006 14:45

Obviously, DC, anyone who does an arts degree is an idiot. In fact, i think universities should stop offering arts degrees at all, and schools should stop teaching arts subjects. Its the only way to weed out those that endanger the intelligence of society by daring to read History or [gag] English! Grin

Dr Ellis obviously has serious issues. A pyschologist would have a field day with him.

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