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A million WORKING adults face benefits cuts next year.

165 replies

Darkesteyeswithflecksofgold · 05/10/2012 01:53

If they cant find additional hours or higher wages they will have to do direct mandatory activity.

www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/oct/04/million-working-adults-benefits-cuts?CMP=twt_fd

OP posts:
ike1 · 05/10/2012 23:28

Well of course you are absolutely correct this is all so bloody vague and there are so many personal and legislative changes that could occur.

ivykaty44 · 05/10/2012 23:30

but this is half the problem there is no clear info about this

How do you really expect them to give clear information when they don't know themselves? - you are asking for clear information what plant do you come from Grin they are clueless, they don't know and if you ask them they will lie and then lie again and make it up

aufaniae · 05/10/2012 23:39

Sorry I just don't get it.

Am I being a bit dense or does it actually not make any sense?!

It seems to me they're saying you can get UC if you're unemployed (up to 5 hours work a week). But if you work for between 5 and 34 hours (equivalent at nmw) you'll get your UC reduced. But at 35 hours you will be eligible for full UC. How does that make any sense?! Have I missed something here?

SaskiaRembrandtWasFramed · 05/10/2012 23:45

Whoever decided that this should apply to the self-employed has absolutely no idea about starting up a business.

My hourly rate is approximately 5 times the minimum wage, but I know a lot of people who are starting out in this field work for much less and do claim benefits to keep them going as they build up. The idea that a beginner is just going to set up shop and earn megabucks is ridiculous; nearly all self-employed people have to go through a period of building up, earning a reputation, gaining repeat clients. The current system allows them to do that; this new one will stifle new businesses.

Also, the idea of turning in monthly accounts is ludicrous. Businesses don't run from month to month, we (and the tax people) take an annual overview.

And finally: what about all the unpaid work the self-employed do?! They don't seem to have considered that. I spend a chunk of my working time on things like bookkeeping, paperwork, writing up and sending off queries, networking, advertising. I don't get paid for these jobs, but they are a very important part of what I do, and for a new business many of these jobs are essential! IDS may think going to a conference or spending an hour on twitter is 'entertainment', but that's how people get more work, make more money and pay more tax.

morethanpotatoprints · 05/10/2012 23:51

aufaniae.

No you have read the same as me by the sounds of it. Basically they want people to work, even if just a few hours. Those who can't find 35 hours a week will be penalised. It also has to pay the minimum wage. I believe if its not the minimum wage you get nothing. Or so I read anyway. It certainly doesn't make sense at all.

ike1 · 05/10/2012 23:51

Yep its all KRAZY half arsed nonsense. Folks if you have to make changes do so NOW just not after OCT 2013

ike1 · 05/10/2012 23:52

So if you work 5 hours what happens then?

ike1 · 05/10/2012 23:55

oh I see u can keep those wages and not be penalised - sheesh well thanks...

aufaniae · 06/10/2012 00:08

OK, I just read this and I understand better what it means in practice.

It's pure insanity.

"It is the subtle shift in the meaning of the minimum wage though which is perhaps the most revealing indicator of the direction of this toff Government. For too long greedy employers have forced people to work on a self-employed basis to avoid having to pay employees the minimum wage. Many cleaners, au pairs and child minders are paid less than minimum wage and registered as self-employed, as are people on building sites around the country along with people working in shady commission only sales jobs. Whilst in some cases this is illegal, it is common practice in many sectors.

Iain Duncan Smith is attempting to usurp the minimum wage by making it not an employers responsibility to pay it, but a workers responsibility to earn it. If someone is working on a self-employed basis on a building site for less than minimum wage, it will be the worker who is punished by the benefits system for not earning enough."

^This

aufaniae · 06/10/2012 00:15

Sorry for massive post, but this helped explain it to me, thought it might be useful. Also from this link

"Working Tax Credits have been a cheaper and less complex way to support those in self-employment than previous schemes. Those who have benefited are not just grasping entrepreneurs, ? tradespeople, casual labourers, child minders and even artists, actors and writers are some of the sectors that depend on Tax Credits for survival.

This is all set to be brought to an end by Universal Credit, which will introduce a staggering amount of complexity into the system and will stifle the chances of both the self-employed and the entrepreneurial alike.

According to the recently published draft regulations: ?claimants who declare that they have income from self-employment, or who are self-employed with no income, will be invited to a ?Gateway? interview.?

This appears to be some form of Stalinist Dragon?s Den, whereby people will be forced to prove to the DWP that their business, or their trade is: ?done with the intention of increasing the income received to the level we could expect the claimant to make if working full time?

Claimants will be expected to provide reams of evidence at these interviews which will no doubt be carried out by people with so much entrepreneurial know-how that they?ve ended up working in the Jobcentre.

Should the claimant pass this government test, then they will be granted a year?s start up period, during which they will be largely left alone. After that they will be subject to the ?Minimum Income Floor?. This means that self-employed people will be expected to earn a certain amount a week, or lose eligibility for benefits or self-employed status. The Government are not telling us exactly what that Minimum Income Floor will be in the consultation documents, however it has previously been suggested that people will be expected to earn at least the minimum wage for any self-employed activity.

Under the new proposals self-employed people will be expected to work at least 18 hours a week. It is unclear whether those in self-employment working at this level will be expected to abandon self-employment to take up full time work, or workfare, should the DWP deem it appropriate. Those working part time are now to be forced to continually look for full time work, attend interviews at the drop of a hat and hand in their notice immediately should they be offered even a temporary full time job.

If these requirements are not inflicted on self employed workers, then for many people simply under reporting their hours will mean they are able to qualify for the full Universal Credit award. If this all sounds confusing that?s because it is. Once again a key piece of legislation, set to go before Parliament in Autumn, has not been thought through or adequately explained.

It is likely that the Minimum Income Floor will mean that self-employed people are expected to earn the equivalent of the minimum wage for 35 hours a week or face a cut in benefits. As Housing Benefits are now to be lumped in with Universal Credit, this may mean homelessness for some.

Another aspect of the new regime will punish people who invest in tools, stock or other business expenses in order to increase earnings. Self employed people will now be required to report all income and business expenditure on a monthly basis as opposed to annually as under the present system. Expenses will not be carried over to the next month. This will mean if someone spends a couple of grand on stock this will only be reflected in their earnings for that month. The new system will make it impossible for self-employed people to invest on any significant level to improve their earnings.

It will not just be businesses that have large outlays, such as small shops or tradespeople, that will be affected by the monthly reporting. A freelance journalist who spends a month writing a piece in anticipation of it being sold will be penalised for not earning minimum wage during that period. Self employed people will be punished for injecting both time and cash into their business. The harder you work, the less you get."

Jellykat · 06/10/2012 00:45

Absolutely Saskia!

I was told by many, including WTC helpline, that you are likely to make a loss in the first year of setting up a business, are lucky to break even in the first year and so on.. it takes years to build up a business, not just one. UC takes no notice of this whatsoever.

I can't see how this can work, if say in December i make £2000 and report as such at the end of the month, but then as so often happens, make nothing in January (the quietest month) presumably they'd bung me on Workfare or some such in March, as i'd have been unemployed.. however what if i had a big order in March? couldn't complete if i was on some Job centre scheme..

What a complete pile of shit!

They want people to work, but if you don't work enough. you'll have to officially give up altogether... and do it on the sly Hmm

aufaniae · 06/10/2012 01:04

I though the Tories were supposed to believe in small government?! Hmm the amount of red tape here is astronomical!

ivykaty44 · 06/10/2012 08:55

Jellykat is right - people will turn to cash in hand ways and black market money, it will be worth while as the government pulls the rug from honest people doing an honest days work for a crap wage. In doing so though they will not claim UV which is the end result that the government wants - as then they will be able to say

Look less and less people are claiming UV so it must mean it is working

pumpkinsweetie · 06/10/2012 08:59

Ivy you have a point there!
On the statistic pov what the government will be doing will look like it's working when infact the reason people are not claiming, is because they are working cash in hand as they'll be no point in being honest when this UC comes in.

CommunistMoon · 06/10/2012 12:46

Christ on a bike, what a fucking shambles. Come to think of it, where are the usual posters who would normally leap to the defence of their beloved coalition? Hmm

Whitecherry · 06/10/2012 13:04

Ha ha yes, where are they?

morethanpotatoprints · 06/10/2012 20:19

Well we are truely screwed.

I live in the NW a town due to receive this first. Me and dh both work in his business as partners and get ctc/tc. Ds2 leaves full time education August next year (19). As we are making changes no transition regs for us, aand we can't inform them of changes until week before apparentely.

QueenofWhatever · 07/10/2012 18:45

I certainly don't support this government but the existing system is really not great. For example, there's working tax credit, child tax credit, child benefit, housing benefit, council tax benefit etc. Surely there's room for improvement.

Also I think the pre-coalition system was too generous. I'm a lone parent and until April this year I was eligible for child tax credit of around £500 a year but I earns £40k. My BF went freelance a couple of years ago and was getting housing benefit and council tax benefit of several hundred pounds a month. He was a healthy, single 40something but was automatically eligible instead of being asked to find a PT job in a pub or supermarket.

And this is against a backdrop of funding beng cut for lunch clubs for the elderly and day centres for people with learning disabilities. I also don't agree with a lot of the universal benefits for older people - bus passes, TV licences, winter fuel allowances. There are lots of affluent older people out there.

However I think universal credit (as it's currently proposed) could be really problematic for the self-employed, lone parents and people with physical and/or mental health disabilities.

The trouble with the Tories (I don't personally think the LibDems get much say in this) is that they just don't care about vulnerable people. Also the money involved is negligible when you compare it to the amount lost through tax avoidance.

Pistaposto · 07/10/2012 21:05

I agree QueenofWhatever

I also agree with Jellycat and IvyKaty

It's also not clear for the self-employed whether monthly income is going to be based on what is invoiced for (as tax is) or actually received in payment, which can be vastly different in DP's experience.

Cashflow is going to be the biggest problem, particularly those who hit hard times in the first dip and are still struggling or only just recovering.

I guess all those small business loans will be out there Hmm

Pistaposto · 07/10/2012 21:20

I also can't get my head round that it's jobcentres the self-employed will go to - where is their expertise in business? Surely they are all about interview skills and job hunting. Have I missed something? Isn?t it small business support that?s needed?

Jobcentre staff are going to love the additional clients to those already piling in their door aren?t they?

ivykaty44 · 07/10/2012 21:38

The trouble with the Tories (I don't personally think the LibDems get much say in this) is that they just don't care about vulnerable people. Also the money involved is negligible when you compare it to the amount lost through tax avoidance.

It isn't that the tory party don't care about vulnerable people - they know that if they take money away from vulnerable people they will not squeek - whereas if they start tampering with tax avoidence ( don't forget there are people that make a lot of money in telling companies how to avoid paying tax) then they will shout and scream about it. Also the old population have a very large number of votes so they need to balance their act and whilst taking some money form them they can't be seen to be taking it all or they will give their votes away

Jellykat · 07/10/2012 21:44

But thats one of the problems Pistaposta - from what i understand the monthly 'checking in' that us Self Employed people will have to do, will be online, not much room for questions or individual circumstances there..

Yes, there may be a helpline planned, but have you ever tried to get through to the Tax Credits helpline? It can take days of trying, and even then you get completely different advice and details each time you ring.

Hilarious isn't it, the government are currently offering grants to young people to set up small businesses, yet judging by what they're planning on doing next year they obviously don't give a stuff about small businesses.. Call me a sceptic, but mayhap the grants are purely a way of reducing the unemployment figures a bit... until they mash it all up next year.

WildWorld2004 · 07/10/2012 21:47

Its fucking ridiculous. How do they expect people to live? Where are all these 35 hour jobs coming from?

As i said in a similar thread about this topic. I work in a job that has limited hours due to the type of job that it is. I can not even get 16 hours so where am i going to find a 35 hour job. I would need to be earning about £15 an hour in my 10 hour a week job to b over the target. I really dont think a retailer would be able to afford to pay all their employees that much.

And who is going to be raising my child? I didnt have a child for someone else to look after her.

WildWorld2004 · 07/10/2012 21:50

Have just gone & worked it out & i will need to be earning about £20 an hour not £15 to be earning the same as 35 hours on minimum wage.

Pistaposto · 07/10/2012 22:12

We're all meant to get 3 or 4 part time jobs, the employers of which will all be vying for ownership for our availability at all times (as happened to me when I took a part time job alongside my own business during the quiet season) but not pay you to keep the time aside.

Oh and they can now sack you dead easy without question.

Still, as our George says, "we mustn?t ?clobber? people who have worked hard and saved to buy their mansions" because that?s got nothing to do with the fact that those who are sitting pretty are doing so because of policies that shafted this country in the process