Private schools 'handicapped by university targets'

[Sonatensatz]

Just read an article in the times commenting that new government targets for universities to take more pupils from state schools is putting those in private schools at a disadvantage, essentially because if their are two equal students the universities should prioritise the state schooled child with an addition that they should lower the grade boundaries for state schooled children. (sorry can't link it's behind the pay barrier)

The article got me thinking that surely the fairest way to select students for university would be to remove the requirement for them to put their school on the application form. Each student could be provided with a reference from their school or college on a standard form which didn't reveal the school on it. That way each pupil would be assessed on their merits and not on the type of school they went to.

Also if, as it seems part of the issue is the level of extra coaching private schooled children get to get them through the exams perhaps a scheme (supported by businesses or private schools as part of the requirement for them to benefit the wider community in order to gain charitable status) could be set up to identify the most talented disadvantaged youngsters from across the country and provide them with bursaries to access extra tuition.

What do others think?

It is simply unfair and makes no sense for universities admissions tutors to discount appropriate developmental opportunities that life has offered applicants, that they have willingly seized, when assessing their suitability for a course of study.

Many universities discount A-levels in a student's mother-tongue, including the "other mother-tongue" of bilingual pupils. What is that about? Being properly bilingual is a lot of hard work - sure, there was luck involved but pupils to have work at that opportunity.

Having two privately educated DC I don't think they have everyhting handed to them on a plate...but access to things is easier and smoother. The school is on hand to advise.

That said I got into Oxbridge a million years ago, from the worse school in the world. I'm convinced I did well because I had seriously read around my subject. Not that I knew you had to. No one told me. And there was no friendly t'internet. But I had a job in a all night petrol station and there wasn't much to do but read .

Also this whole debate need not be Oxbridge centric. There are many other highly selective universities and the same rules apply.

The law department from Nottingham univeristy requires higher grades at Alevel than Oxbridge I think. And would certainly require a good pre test in law and a decent interview.

Right so families with children in state schools have more money than families with children in the private sector. I'm obviously living on a completely different planet because thats not my experience at all.

Looking at the 'posh list', the university that does worst (ie has the highest % of privately educated) is Oxford. Sorry seig. Closely followed by Durham, then Cam.

Outraged, we do know that 'state' and 'private' are ridiculously wide categories, but efforts to refine them are problematic too (postcodes, parents' occupations, school's postcodes and academic track records - but tutors can also disregard all the above...). The categories are pretty much driven by the government's demands for figures...

I do NOT agree that ANY young person gets everything on a plate. I once taught a girl whose parents were multimillionaires, and she had been to a private school, yet there wasn't a book in her house, and they were actually in organised crime... Having pushy encouraging parents can be a disadvantage. It's also unjust to dismiss someone with 12 A*s or whatever from Eton on the grounds that Eton made it easy - how could they have done any better?

On the other hand, how can we possibly eliminate all variables? We have to base our judgements on what's in front of us.

Can't we focus on what kind of secondary system the country needs to improve things at all elite universities?

wordfactory, since law requires 3 As I assume you mean A*, and Oxford has been very dubious about the value of these... Cambridge has embraced them, though.

Yes Nottingham requires A*AA, wheras you guys want AAA I believe.

seig I asume also that certain courses have a higher contingent of private school students.

History of Art, Classics, PPE?

"Can't we focus on what kind of secondary system the country needs to improve things at all elite universities?"

If it were up to me, I would want all schools to offer a full standard range of academic GCSEs and a full standard range of academic A-levels. If schools aren't even offering the subjects that top universities require, that is grossly unfair on both pupils and universities.

Whistlestop, families with children in state schools may well have more disposable income than families with children in private school, and it's the disposable income that actually matters.

There are all sorts of things that affect a child's opportunities, and it is very small minded to just blindly assume that all private pupils have massive advantages over all state pupils.

That is exactly the point I was trying to make. All schools are very different, and there is probably much more similarity between the 'affordable' private schools and the comps in expensive areas than there is between the cheaper and most expensive private schools or the top performing and sink state schools.

Most private school kids have motivated parents who have engaged with the admissions process. 18 year olds today are not the same as 18 year olds in 1982. They used to go alone to uni open days but now the parents go and take the 17/18 year olds along. We have infantilised our youth by making the admissions process too complicated and by making university viewed as an investment by the parents.

Bonsoir - where did that lad go as a matter of interest?

I think here in the UK, most schools in whatever sector offer all the usual suspects. It's just that they also offer the less academic subjects, and teachers ferociously defend them as equivalent.

To be fair to young people it must be hard not to trust these teachers. A youg man I know is studying a smorgasbord of things that will not qualify him for the law degree he wants to study. He has had shit advice from his school.

On mother tongue languages bonsoir I can agree and disagree. It clearly is a lot of work to become bilingual and a very worthwhile skill, but what the universities who discount an A level in a mother tongue are really saying is that they want to see evidence that a child can study 3 A levels in 2 years and cope with the workload. The problem with mother tongue A levels is that in many cases the work has been put in over a lifetime rather than in that 2 years of study, so the candidate offering this combination may only be able to manage 2 A level's worth of workload rather than 3 at a time.

whistle of course a lot of private school families have loads of residual income, but many have used it all up on the fees and scrimp along on very little. Just as it would be incorrect to assume all state school families are on the breadline you can't assume all private school families are loaded either. I guess the point is that if you take two families of equal wealth and one chooses the private education path and the other the state, the state family will have a lot more spare cash than the other.

He's at Sciences Politiques in Paris and is one of a small contingent doing a double degree in Political Science at Sciences Po and Mathematics at one the Paris universities.

On the other hand, how can we possibly eliminate all variables? We have to base our judgements on what's in front of us.

Exactly. Judge on what you are presented with, not the background it came from.

Wordfactory - BUt nobody would choose Nottingham law school over Oxford or Cambridge.

Can't we focus on what kind of secondary system the country needs to improve things at all elite universities
Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think a lot of students up north would littlef

And I think a lot of students from norhtern comps would consider Oxbridge not for the likes of them.

wordfactory - I think you are a little naïve. I know for fact that some of the less academic "comprehensives" in Kent offer a very restricted range of academic A-levels, meaning that pupils who fail their 11+ and whose parents don't pay for private school are unable to access, say, French at A-level.

On the whole Outraged state school families have less disposable income than families who educate privately. Most people don't choose state school because they want to enjoy spending all their disposable income. The average family doesn't have any disposable income once bills are paid.

I feel very personally about this, I was rejected from Oxford in the early 90s. I was the "star" pupil at a fairly rough comprehensive school and everyone expected me to get in. I walked into the interview room a confident 17 year old and left in bits, they had me for breakfast. It may be that i just wasn't good enough but I remain convinced that I simply had no idea what to expect or how to behave and was floored by the whole process.

I did go to a Russell group university and have a PhD so I did OK in the end but I still feel cross at the way my younger self was treated by these people.

On the whole doesn't matter when we are talking about two individual students who are having their future decided for them. The decision has to be based on them as individuals, not everyone else.

And you need to realise that your experience is only that. There are plenty of state school families that can afford far more with their income than just paying the bills.

Of course those rejected will blame the system - no surprises there.

No disposable income doesn't make all the difference,what a silly thing to say.For a start the vast maj of parents with kids in state schools have no disposable income.

A few ballet/tennis lessons does not an Oxbridge candidate make and I really just don't see the value in tutoring (which at £30 an hour is widely out of most parent's reach anyhow)after an exhausting day at school and homework to do.Also a lot of these tutors(not all but many)are no more qualified than me to tutor.

Being in small classes with little disruption, pushy teachers not fighting fires and the top facilities is what makes all the difference.

I'll swap with any parent privately educating if you like.