Should schools have CCTV in changing rooms and toilets?

[Beaglefox4]

In the news today there was a report (Big Brother Watch) by a civil liberties campaign group of schools in Britain having more than 100,000 cameras in their playgrounds, classrooms and even toilets and changing rooms. I personally find outrageous, inexplicable and rather creepy. www.theweek.co.uk/uk-news/48975/should-schools-have-cctv-changing-rooms-and-toilets but a lot of people don't seem to fazed by it preferring it for safety reasons . Thoughts?

Wouldn't bother me in the slightest. DS1 was on the receiving end of some awful bullying in the changing rooms whilst changing for Games. Would have been good to have it on film.

I would think the loos are perfect places for a bit of unseen bullying too.

imo it is a good idea, they are hotspot for bullying and theft

I doubt anyone will watch the footage unless an incident has been reported.

Absolutely not in areas of naked/partially dressed pupils, ie cubicles.

I understand the anti bullying stance but it is such an invasion of personal privacy and if I went to a gym which had it in their changing rooms I wouldn't use them.

Any problems at my DS's school regarding toilet bullying then the toilets are closed. The dc have to use the one toilet by the staffroom, the janitor waits outside with the queue. It's happened once in two years and bullying is low.

You wouldn't get bullied at the Gym though.

I don't know about that Sparkling, I'm 6ft, a size 20 which is big and quite often the butt of jokes from the small skinny girls.

I completely understand where you are coming from and I'm really sorry your DS has had to go through that. CCTV in the toilets but not in the cubicles could still catch a group coming out of one cucible. In the toilet it is a massive invasion of personal privacy. What about girls struggling with tampons?

And bullying happens in classrooms, playgrounds, the school bus.

I think it's absolutely ridiculous that we'd even think about putting cameras in toilets and changing rooms, let alone doing it.

Just because we can doesn't mean we should!

It's even more absurd that some people think it's fine just because someone may get bullied.

What about the privacy aspects? Esp in this day & age where everyone is assumed to be a peado until CRB proves otherwise?

100,000 cameras is a lot of resources. I wonder how many of them work and how many times they've actually been useful in resolving issues or improving, rather than moving, poor behaviour.

The article suggests cameras do not overlook the cubicles, which is good. Though I'm not clear how cameras in changing rooms manage this unless school changing rooms have become a lot more luxurious than my local sports centre or spa. Regardless, privacy is about more than nudity and there seems to be a lack of concern for the privacy of the subjects of the surveillance. I think, given the compulsory nature of schooling, more should be done to ensure students support this approach, not just parents and staff.

And CRB's only work for those who have actually been caught.

This is really old isn't it? I don't know about schools, but it's always been done in public toilets.

I remember twenty years ago having made a mad dash to king's cross after work, having ten minutes to get on the train, and legging it to the toilets to whip off my work clothes and put my jeans on. I threw off my clothes to pants and bra, grabbed my stuff out of my bag, threw them on, stuffed my workwear in my bag, and legged it. As I threw my bag over my shoulder to make a quick dash for the platform, I saw a big fat security camera pointed straight at me in the ladies.

I often wonder whether the security guards even noticed.

I would have thought schools were a prime site for bullying, so I have no particular issue as long as the recordings are deleted and dealt with by appropriate staff. The whole paranoia about nakedness is bizarre (I refer to the many changing rooms threads).

I mean, it's unlikely they are going to be put in the showers.

Emmaline, the whole surveillance thing is very hot now though. Have seen a gazillion research requests, and there have been a fair few phd assistantships about on that basis.

It's interesting at a theoretical level. But I'm still not that bothered, tbh.

Mad, it may not bother you and plenty of people aren't bothered walking around half naked but getting changed and changing after showering are two different things.

I've never seen CCTV in toilets and I'd hate my dc growing up to think it's normal. It's all too 1984.

Lol, yep. And been around since 1984.

If anything is creepy, it's that it's been around for so long and none of you have noticed! Insidious, this surveillance stuff...

Sorry Vintage, hadn't even thought of actually in the toilet cubicles, that may be a bit OTT. In the toilets as in where the sinks are, and in the changing rooms would be ok to me.

I should add that the incidents happened at DS's old school and he has been fine at the new one.

mad which bit is interesting at a theoretical level? Whether it works or whether it's ethical to insist children allow themselves to be filmed going about their day to day lives without their input?

Glad there's finally some research, hope it's useful. I remember back in the '90s when town centre CCTV became big the first research that came out showed it didn't really help with preventing or solving crime, the crime just moved out of view. Not sure whether that informed CCTV use. Maybe they've got better at working out how to do it effectively.

Don't remember much CCTV in toilets in 1984, though I do recall Miss Selfridges (I think) had them in their communal changing room in the '80s and it caused enough very British mutterings uproar that they got rid of them and put in cubicles.

I never thought I would say this, as on most threads we are at complete opposite ends of arguments, but I agree with niceguy

First time for everything
:o

Mad, I don't live in London or work there, I have seen weird London things on the tv though, like talking bins and cycling couriers, I can guarantee my local public toilets don't have CCTV although they do have a lot of spiders

I still think it is a massive invasion of privacy, why not just stick your dc infront of a camera 24/7.

Big schools may have need of it in toilets but shouldn't need it in changing rooms.

Sparkling, glad things have improved for him.

Emmeline - all of it. not just kids though, adults too. But we already are, to a large extent. I can't say that it affects me much. I don't waste too much time thinking about it. When I do, (like if I see a research proposal) it's interesting. Foucault and all that jazz. Definitely a resurgence of interest. All the rage. I imagine there are loads of papers on tinternet, I haven't looked.

I don't live in London now, am out in the sticks and not in the UK. I think the only reason smaller places don't do it is lack of funding. Maybe.
I'm not specifically talking about loos and changing at this point, just general surveillance. It's interesting how it has become so widespread and accepted.

Efficacy is a whole other ball game. (and more interesting to look at efficacy of fake surveillance, too, but all tied up.)

My opening gambit was possibly a bit strong, lol. It's been around for yonks, but obv not everywhere (tee hee at miss selfridge).

I didn't much care whether they introduced compulsory ID cards, though, so I'm probably fairly abnormal in my disregard for personal civil liberties. it's probably laziness. I'd rather read about it and ponder the effects than get worked up about the reality.

Mad, I would think it more to with Kings Cross being a possible terrorist target than my local council not being able to afford it.

There's a difference also of CCTV in town centres, useful after the crime or to get services to an incident, over someone watching little Timmy pee in a school.

I also think some, note some, schools need to change policies on bullying not just use CCTV as the easy way out.

I have no idea whether the ladies bogs at king's Cross twenty odd years ago were thought to be a particular hotbed of terrorism...

I'm not sure the reason for the surveillance is particularly important, is it? It's the fact that it exists and that people are concerned it either shouldn't, or that the surveillance for one reason could be used for another (legally or illegally).

Most people have either a fear of being watched in a larger context (and having your movements known and potentially tracked - a la the 'pass 200 cameras on the way to work' stuff) or a fear that the film will be used for unsavory purposes (in the case of changing rooms/ toilets)? Or, I dunno, what else? There's a lot of questions.

Like I said, no idea of the efficacy of surveillance as it currently stands, but there's loads of stuff since Bentham that suggests it's a powerful method of social control. Which I guess is why it gets more and popular, a la 1984. I assume there has to be a turning point at which the efficacy of surveillance is lost as a method of social control, due to people becoming immune. At that point it just becomes a method of catching baddies lol. Doesn't have any impact on social control at all. I wonder if we've reached that point.

Oh, I wonder if that's why I'm not too bothered - I'm thinking about the social control aspects, rather than the 'being watched' stuff. Hmm.

Social control re cctv, say in town centres, doesn't really work anyway and people are already immune to it, which is why it's only really used after a crime or whilst an incident is occuring. It's not crime prevention, it's surviellance and I'd personally rather my dc wasn't survielled whilst peeing.

There are also more effective means of social control than cctv which is a bit of a red herring.

Kings Cross probably would have been heavily protected 20years ago due to terrorist activity at that time.

I don't think it's such a bad idea.

When I was at middle school, I used to go for the whole day without going to the toilet as they were such scary places, and I wasn't the only one.

There were enough 'incidents' at a school my ds went too that the cubicle doors and doors into all the boys toilets were removed (don't know about the girls). I didn't realise until recently that it was the cubicle doors as well as the entrance doors that had been removed so if they needed to use a cubicle they had to do it in full view of whoever came in! That seems quite drastic.

I don't know if this was due to bullying, stealing, drugs etc but I suspect probably all. Ds goes to a different school now I'm happy to say. I don't know if they have camera in the toilets but I guess not as some of the toilets are now locked in the school day due to wet toilet rolls being strewn about (boys again) and if they had cameras they'd know who it was.

My brother worked at various nightclubs and said they had to install the doors which have side gaps so you had a bit of privacy but they could see if there were more than 1 person in there and you could get some idea what was going on if necessary (ie because of drugs). And they had cameras in the main toilet areas but not in the cubicles themselves.

I think you have to accept that some places require a higher level of vigilance, and schools fall into that.

I wouldn't be too worried about camera in the changing rooms were they were only changing into PE kit. Slightly different if they are changing for swimming where everything would be removed.
I don't think showers are allowed to be used in schools. ALthough they have them my ds has never used the showers because they're not allowed, and we never did at school either.

If you have cameras everywhere else in school and not in the toilets then anything that they want to keep hidden will take place in the toilets. No having cameras in there when you do everywhere else is just asking for problems imo.

I work in a school and there's just been a flurry of interest because of the imagined 'watching of children in the toilets'. The cameras are directed on the washbasins only and bullying incidents since they were installed is virtually non-existant.