UK seriously considering opt in policy for online pornography.

[drater]

www.dailydot.com/news/uk-internet-opt-in-porn/

Am I the only one who thinks this is ridiculous? I hate the way that public figures are trying to make out that the Internet should be child safe. It's an adult place, with adult content, and if you want your kids to venture into it, you make them safe by using Netnanny or similar tools or by, and here's a radical idea, supervising them. You wouldn't (or shouldn't) go shopping in an adult store and expect to take your kid in there with you and have them cover everything so little timmy doesn't see some tittays, so don't let your kid meander round the Internet without some form of supervision.

Shouldn't it be a parents job to survey their children's internet use rather than a nanny government limiting it for everyone?

"Laws prohibiting children watching porn?!

Are you on drugs?"

No, are you?

Does it mean we don't make laws because they're too hard to enforce?

Well, if they are completely unenforceable they are completely pointless.

An opt-in policy is one option - which I'm in favour of.

"Does it mean we don't make laws because they're too hard to enforce? "

It means you don't make knee-jerk decisions in an attempt to be seen to be doing something. You use the systems that actually do work instead of taking the advice of well-meaning types who admit they don't understand the technology involved but still insist their opinion is more valid than that of professional programmers and software designers. I'm sure Esther Ranzten is very well intentioned but on this subject she is more wrong than a very wrong thing indeed.

If this is made law, any money spent on it will be completely wasted. For far less, the government could set up classes in every primary school to teach parents how to use programmes that are already available, and to explain why it's not a good idea to let your child have an internet phone, a Facebook account and/or a computer in their bedroom.

One more thing - we don't expect the government to go round installing stairgates and fireguards, we expect the parents of young children to install those things themselves. This is no different!

Animation
The systems to prevent children watching pron are already in place but it requires the parent to be proactive.

One very simple solution to your child watching porn is as niceguy (sorry if I'm referencing the wrong poster) does and that it to have to PC in the same room as you.
This would have to be the same for laptops and consoles.
As for phones, I really can't think of any real reason as to why a child would need to do anymore than text and ring on their phone.

"An opt-in policy is one option - which I'm in favour of."

You know that'd kind of like saying, well a unicorn is one method of transport - it isn't feasible, but it's a nice dream.

But I'm surprised the argument isn't more focussed on upgrading technology -and with help from the big guns at Ministry of Defence if necessary - working towards making sure ALL kids don't watch adults having sex on the internet.

Filtering is good if all parents use it. Maybe all computers could have the filtering system built in place automatically...done for you, so only an adult can opt-in to watch porn.

Animation, if the Ministry of Defence were actually involved I'd be extremely worried about what was going on and what was actually being censored.

You need people of that calibre, not the actual the MoD.

Your argument generally reminds me of the "Greater Good" scene from Hot Fuzz. Stuck on the idea and not really understanding the consequences or what you are actually doing.

"Does it mean we don't make laws because they're too hard to enforce?"

An unenforceable law is a bad law; for it makes a mockery of the law.

But this proposal is not wrong because it is unenforceable (indeed it would be extremely easy to enforce). It is wrong because it doesn't work

EBAL - And I suspect some men wont want an opt in for porn as then they will have to explain to partners that yes they do use porn.

Yes, you're probably right and it makes it tricky to have a rational discussion about it. It's still a crap unworkable non-solution though.

If we had an opt in, I suspect that 'some men' would opt in late at night, have their wank over porn and then forget to opt out again leaving the entire household without any sort of filtering. Then again, I suspect that 'some women' would do the same in order to follow links from here (if they can get here at all what with all the bumsex and cunts and stuff).

"Your argument generally reminds me of the "Greater Good" scene from Hot Fuzz. Stuck on the idea and not really understanding the consequences or what you are actually doing."

And your argument reminds me of a scene from "As Good as it Gets" with Jack Nicklesons' intolenence for any argument that differs from yours!!

"Animation, if the Ministry of Defence were actually involved I'd be extremely worried about what was going on and what was actually being censored."

Specifically referring to their expertise in IT skills.

Actually, I've now changed my mind. I think it's such a great idea, I'm now going to get Esther Rantzen to start another campaign to get Ready Brek to update their recipe, so that kids are really surrounded by glowing auras after they've eaten it!

But this time the auras will make moving cars bounce off them!!

Then my four year old won't need me to help her cross the road!!!

Animation, I do not want the MoD anywhere near censorship. Not a chance. You are taking my comment out of context and actually you are scaring me with it now. I find your authoritarian approach actually quite terrifying.

My point was you need people who are capable of designing software that is as close to unhackable as you can get and lead their field; and even then I'm not convinced they could do it due to the limitations and side effects of trying to censor porn.

You need to understand the porn industry really led the development and expansion of the internet, because of the money it generated and thats what you are up against. One of the biggest industries on the internet which often sits outside the boundaries of the law as it is.

Not only that but the darker side of the internet, is populated by people who see it as a game to create chaos or to hack and protect the freedom of the internet as being uncensored. Its very anarchist and certainly does not respect authoritarian responses, even if its well intentioned and against porn and protecting children because they think it is about controlling people in general. You need to understand this mentality before you start thinking about massive government lead projects in this area.

FWIW, just an example of how its unlikely to work. Piratebay was banned and you can't access it through some ISPs because they filter it out. So what have they done. Changed the URL. Same for other banned sites, they just keep changing the URL and the people who are responsible for the filtering just can't keep up with it. If they can't manage it for one site, how do you think they will do it for thousands and thousands?

And if you filter sites where there are certain words you get real issues too. Its been pointed out to me in the past how the internet can have a positive effect with adult content; teenagers who are discovering their sexuality - particularly if they are gay or lesbian. They might not be accessing porn but they might be accessing adult content sites they give them support and understanding and actually help them rather than being a destructive force.

And the problem with censorship is at what point do you say that is termed as adult content and that isn't. The debate has focused on porn, but strictly speaking unless you codify that and explicitly can define that you have an issue, and even then people will find ways to just about get round the edges of that.

And thats before you even start thinking about the very minor issue that what X considers to be porn, is rarely exactly the same as what Y considered to be porn.

It really is a complete pie in the sky idea and you clearly lack very little real understanding of what you are proposing would actually involve or need and what problems and opposition it would face.

Animation
"And your argument reminds me of a scene from "As Good as it Gets" with Jack Nicklesons' intolenence for any argument that differs from yours!!"

I cant see any intolerance here, Just a difference of opinion as to who should be repsonsible for the "porn-be-gone" button.

"Animation, I do not want the MoD anywhere near censorship. Not a chance. You are taking my comment out of context and actually you are scaring me with it now. I find your authoritarian approach actually quite terrifying."

Scaring you? authoritarian? terrfying?

How dramatic - are you capable of debating without put downs?

Animation, you need to understand how censorship really DOES frighten people that much. And no I'm not being over dramatic. Internet censorship is an idea that makes my blood run that cold.

Animation

Would oit help if I called the people that HmmThinkingAboutIt is talking about conspiracy theorists?

It would be an inacurate term but it shows the level of fear in some people.

The internet is one of the few places where everything can be seen, This worked quite well when dictatorships or governments are usurped as it allows people to see that actual footage of what is going on.

Apply an "unbreakable" code to the internet and you censor the good and the bad.

HmmThinkingAboutIt

I'm actually NOT talking about censorship here, though I don't have the issue with it you do, I'm talking about drawing from MoD expertise with technology -working towards making it more sophisticated.

The thing that makes my blood run cold is the thought of young kids watching folk having sex and we don't do a damned thing about it!!

it would not be an acurate term

BoneyBackJefferson you are bang on about conspiracy theorists being the extreme.

But as a general rule, I don't think you need to be at that extreme to have very real worries about the government should be interfering with what you can and can't access on the internet. Do not forget that most porn on the internet is actually legal (the argument about abuse, coercion and exploitation is to a point a red herring and distraction here) and thats what bothers people. Its about restricting the perfectly legal flow of information. Which is by that very a form of definition censorship. Even if it is an opt in/out system.

There is still a gatekeeper who is making decisions, and once you have a gatekeeper how do you keep an eye on what they are controlling and keeping from others? Even if you can get access to stuff, you might have good reason to worry about things that other people had 'opted out' of and might not realise. Controlled information changes behaviour and opinions. An opt in/out system means you have an infrastructure in place that ultimately will always be open to abuse, hacking or otherwise unforeseen problems. Not to mention it still means that not everyone is getting unfettered access and not everyone is in control of whether they make that opt in/out decision.

As for young kids watching folk having sex... a) parents need to be aware of what their kids are doing on the internet anyway and be responsible for them b) you are proposing a disproportion response to irresponsible parenting; the price being paid is that all people have their freedom infringed c) a idea that wouldn't work for a whole pile of reasons listed above d) risking stirring up groups who are frankly nuts and I wouldn't put past doing things like put porn on childrens' websites to prove a point

Yes I'd be really concerned if the MoD had anything to do with this.

Who doesn't do a damned thing about it, Animation?

Most people use the far superior filtering software that's already available, combined with other supervisory tactics. Meanwhile it's quite rightly a CP issue to allow a child access to porn.

I hope if you have DC you don't just sit there not doing a damned thing about it

I think there's a lot more we could do, btw, along the lines of education and support, as I outlined in a previous post.

You are right POPG. I resent the idea that because you are opposed to filtering that you somehow are a bad person and don't care about what kids access on the internet. Education and support is the only way to go and the only way to really be in control of what your kids are doing on the internet. Filters would really be the abdication of responsibility not the other way around.