Another MMR article - Sunday Times

[twiglett]

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FM- where is the death by modern medicine link btw- i can't find it.

Jeff Bradstreet is a clinician working with autistic children.

Oh OK found it in the Gary Null link. Haven't read it- looks as if its about malnutrition in nursing homes etc amd rising c-section rates (which has been recorded as happening). No idea what his overall views on things are- just used the summary on his webpages (which wasn't written by him- it was written by YazbaK) to reveal problems with the Finnish study

The next link was written by a UK parent, but seems sensible. It reviews most of the relevant studies anyway.

The final link is to the autism research unit.

Gary Null is irrelevant as I haven't referred to anything he has written!

Right more info about yazbak can be found here:

www.whale.to/vaccines/yazbak.html

With a snip from that page

"Dr. Ed Yazbak, a pediatric infectious disease specialist from Boston, said research will not find a chromosome responsible for autism. He is a former professor at Brown University now studying the medical histories of children with autism in an effort to determine what triggered their condition. "Research will show there is a genetic predisposition to autism. What we have to find is the environmental insult," he said."

Looks as if his opinion should be fairly well informed.......

Hi everyone....sorry to add fuel to the fire...
My son had the mmr jab (prior to which I did no reading, wish I had), seven days later his diahorrea started, now he has had it for three weeks. Stool sample ruled out the usual suspects. The doctor has told me that he has developed lactose intolerance following an 'unspecified virus' (ummmm, wonder what virus that may be). I feel terrified that he is at the start of a slippery slope, and wonder if anyone out there has had anything similar following the jab. Speech and behaviour fine - in fact he can say about 30 words even though he is just 13 months!

scv- have you given probiotics? I'd also recommend a homeopath - even if you're not into that sort of thing it wouldn't do any harm iyswim.

The other thing I'd recommend is emailing the ARU for advice. I know you're not worried about speech communication etc so they may seem irrelevent, but they have lots of experience with MMR reactions - and diet intervention and may be able to give some advice to help the diarrhoea (and they are lovely and helpful which is the main reason for recommending them!)

link here: osiris.sunderland.ac.uk/autism/aru.htm

They may be able to pass you onto someone more suitable for your situation as well.

BTYW- the ARU may be able to do a urine test to give some idea of what is going on gut wise- I'm not sure whether it would be suitable in your case or not- but might be worth asking them about.

Good luck- they really are lovely people there I'd recommend them - and they really know their stuff. And they believe what you say!

I know it sounds a bit heavy handed, but they may also be able to put your mind at rest that its not MMR related iyswim.

Hope your ds is better soon.

Thanks for advice! This is my first stab at mumsnet and it really delivers!
Funnily enough my GP got me started on Actimel yesterday, which provoked even worse diahorrea (because its lactose based?)- why didn't he think of that??
By coincidence I know of an excellent homeopath who has sent me a non lactose probiotic which i will be getting tomorrow....will keep you posted. Apparently its given routinely in Austria to prevent the sorts of problems we are having.
Will contact the peeps you recommend too and let you know how get on.......

glad you've got a good homeopath, Let us know how you get on- I'll be thinking of you.

another thought- vitamin A reduces complications with natural measles infection so would probably be good to give here as well. It has to be in the form of retinol though- not carotenes- which basically means giving fish liver oils (not things like efalex- they don't contain vitamin A). You don't want to go overboard on vitamin A as it is toxic in high doses, but short term supplementation won't do any harm and may do some good.

Jimjams, first of all, I am not ridiculing any parent. I have enough experience with the NHS and incompetent GPs to know better than to think GPs know it all. I know that they are often the first to diagnose "hysterical mum condition" and the worst thing they can ever imagine is if someone suggests what might be wrong with their child themselves. 3 GPs missed a serious condition in my DS when he was very little and I had to take him to Sweden to get a diagnosis. Then got the diagnosis within 5 minutes......
I am also all for continued research into vaccination!

I also don't mean to rubbish your links. You clearly are very knowledgeable on the subject. I have hardly any knowledge, but did research as much as I could before giving the MMR to my kids. I don't think any parent remain unaffected by all the controversy surrounding this vaccine when it comes to their own child. I did try to read arguments from both sides, but I was very dissapointed in the arguments I found on the anti-vaccine side. Much of it (or what I found at least) seemed to me very much to be part of a wider philosophy that modern medical intervention is bad, corrupt etc etc. A shame because I then find it very difficult to believe in any reserach and other material they put forward. I do think Gary Null is relevant. I don't know who is behind the reserach he is presenting. You probably do, but most parents wouldn't recognise the names. My point is that it is very important to be critical to where you find your information and to the studies that are done. You might well be right that the studies are flawn, but in order to really understand that, you have to have a degree in reserach methodology. As we all know, any statistics can be manipulated. (Of course, also by public health officials.)

Gary Null is irrelevant as I haven't posted anything by him. The piece was writted by Yazbak- a peadiatric infectious disease specialist and former professor from Brown Univeristy. All gary Null did (whoever he was ) was put a link on his web page. I ahven't even read his web page- I got to Yazbak's piece from google.

I don;t claim to believe every piece by people who are anti vaccination. I don't believe anything without checking it out myself. earier today I mentioned that I had heard that thimerosil is not included in animal vaccination- but gave the proviso that I had not checked that piece of research out. In the same way that I have heard that polio is rarely serious before the age of 3. I have seen that in several different places, but have been unable to confirm whether or not it is true. It sounds a bit suspect to me.

The MMR debate is not about being anti-vaccination. Wakefield is not anti-vaccination - and visceral - his funding body do not accept grants from anti-vaccination groups. The MMR debate is about the safest way to vaccinate. I personally have chosen not to vaccinate ds2 because I believe we have a lot of Th2 dominated immune systems in our family. It's an oversimplification- but these type of immune systems do not do well with vaccination. If I was to go trecking round India with ds2 in tow (taking ds1 would obviously be impossible) then I would probably give him many of the vaccinations I have so far refused, as we would be weighing upi a different risk/benefit analysis. The more I study homeopathy and the more I find out about vaccinations the more wary I become. That is my personal view. Of course there are very obvious risks to not vaccinating- ones which I am well aware of and hope never to experience.
I agree parents may be affected by the debate. However the parents who are affected far more than anyone else are the one's who have the damaged children. At the moment very few people are even listening to them. These are the people I feel for- far more than someone who can't make up their minds between single or triple. And anyway all that agonising would go if single jabs were re-introduced. This whole mess is of the govts making.

I am sick of being treated like some typhoid Mary for giving my ds the single measles jab - he was actually made immune to measles before any of my friends children were called for their MMR. The rabid pro MMR people always imply that no MMR means no immunity. I consider myself a responsible person and believe that by giving single measles and rubella vaccines I have well and truly done my 'duty' to society. And if I was Jimjams I wouldn't vaccine at all either. I think it is positively sinister that we are being deprived of this option when we are also being told every five minutes that measles is a killer illness. If children are important to the government, then they'd at least stop obstructing the route to single vaccines for those who prefer them (even if it seems totally irrational to some). They aren't bullying people into the MMR, they are bullying them into a non-vaccinated state.

Gary Null is relevant because he has put the link on his website. Considering his other views, it makes me dubious about this material as I don't know abything about this person. Why is this not posted on a more balanced web-site? Why is it not published by the government? The Swedish government, for example, frequently points to the Finnish study.I have not heard any mentioning of its flaws before It is very difficult to know who to believe. I think it's really important that there is a debate, but that people consider the backgrounds on the people who argue for or against. I would be just as sceptical as someone from a big phamaceutical company as I would to a link on GN's website. I would automatically assume they were biased. I think everyone is biased to a certtain extent. The government, but also the parents who claim their children have been damaged by the MMR. Perhaps they are right. I don't want to sound like one the people you loathe, but I can understand the need for someone/something to blame for their child's condition.
I think people should have a choice, but I think too many people make their choice based on some big headline screaming "MMR and autism link" in a tabloid paper.

Yes, the parents affected the most are the ones with the damaged child. Vaccine-dammaged, but also measles -damaged. What is the biggest ris? I think it is measles-damaged if people stop vaccinating.

Well, I had never heard that polio is not dangerous before the age of 3. My father had polio when he was 4 and had a very lucky escape, but has lived with after-effects his whole life. I can safely say that polio is a very serious disease.
BTW, I had measles when I was young. I was vvaccinated but still got it. I had it very mild though. I am under the impression that you can get measles even if vaccinated, but then it is always mild. Is that your view?

Fairymum.... not sure it is always mild if you have been vaccinated - I do know 2 children who had it far worse than the non-vaccinated children (in same epidemic).... this is a personal not scientific report

I think sometimes the vaccine doesn't work....

FM would you be happier if I out a link to the same piece writing by the clinicial Yazbak- the paediatric infectious disease specialist via another source? Yazbak is wel known I'm sure I can find his work from another source. I won't find it from the dept of health as they are too busy sticking their heads in the sand.

There a loads of political reasons this is ignored. Many of the researchers looking into this believe that MMR is the final straw for these children, and that one of the early environmental assaults comes from thimerosil. Can you imagine the uproar if this was shown to be true? It's simply too awful to even contemplate. So they don't. if they don't look they won't find.

See visceral's homepage for more details.

And FM I wasn't saying that polio isn't serious. Actaully it often gives gastroenteritis and not much else, but it can be serious certainly, and yes people used t live in fear of polio epidemics. I ws using that "not serious before the age of 3" as an example of how I question what I have heard.

I'm ot being funny FM, but you are complaining that people make their minds up based on headlines. Here in this thread I have pointed you in the direction of many links, I have explained the scieince, I have explained that the main players in this debate are not anti-vaccine- they want safe vaccination. You keep talking about people stopping vaccinating. No-one is talking about stopping vaccinating. People are talking about giving singles.

Have you EVER met a mother of an autistic child. We don't all sit around blaming something. The people who blame the MMR are very much in the minority, and some of those who do are the strongest people I know- I am in awe of them. If you don't want to sound like one of the people I hate then don't say it- especially when you haven't even spoken to any of them.

Lets see your child has MMR and three days later has his frist seizure. A week later chronic diarrhoea sets in and he starts to wake nightly screaming. Langauge skills and self help skills are lost and he starts smearing shit on the walls. What did you just not notice that, or did something happen to him at around the time of the MMR. Of course it doesn;t prove causality, but it is the most parsimoious explanation and therefore needs to be considered. This happened to a friend's child= and she is not sitting round weeping and blaming all and sundry- she's mad as hell that no-one will look at what happened, but she's not some fragile eggshell unable to cope needing to blame.

Pupuce you're right. If the vaccination hasn't given immunity then the disease is the same as in an unvaccinated child. In my aunts house the vacinated child got whooping cough far worse than the unvaccinated one. If the vaccination has given some immunity then it may be mild. However natural infections can always be mild as well. Many cases of mumps are subclinical for example.

Can I try and explain about the Yazbak piece again. The famous Gary Null did not comission the piece by Yazbak. He has simply stuck a link on his webpage to a piece written by Yazbak. Rather like if I was to set up a webpage I would probably include a link to "scientist discuss the Taylor paper" which used to be included on the NAS website, and now resides at Sunderland I believe. The scientists doing the discussing would have no idea that I had included a link- and me including a link would neither add weight nor detract from what they are saying. Gary Null is irrelevent - he is just like a librarian saying "oh look this is an interesting book".

I wasn't saying that your information/links were not reliable. The point I am making is that it is difficult for us who don't understand this issue on your level to know/understand the reliability of the material we read. On one hand, we are being told that it is safe, a lot of research has been done into the MMR and it is completely safe. On the other hand, we have got the opposing views you are providing pointing out the flaws in the same research. I certainly don't know enough to interpret this material. I found the information you gave regarding the flaws in the research worrying, but I am sure someone else would have pointed out flaws in your post.....

Of course a lot of people are not vaccinating their children and this is not only due to single vaccines not being available on the NHS. There is also a lot of talk of vaccination in general being more dangerous than these "mild" childhood diseases like measles, wooping cough and yes even polio. I am not saying that is what YOU are saying, but this is also why the imunisation levels have fallen.

I have never implied that anyone are "fragile eggshells" unable to cope with their child. I have said that as far as I have read and heard, there are perfectly good explanations for why some people think the MMR trigger autism. Perhaps" blame" was not the right word. I should have said "explain".

Look paediatricians like to say that parents are unable to spot autism in their child until they are 18 months. Early signs of autism are subtle, but with hindsight it is easy to realise that they were there. A friend of mine has3 children the eldest is autistic (which she realised around 18 months) the second is normal. And the third? Well she marched him to a SALT at 8 months and told them he was autistic. SALT's told her it was far too early to tell blah blah blah. At age 3 he has been diagnosed with semantic pragmatic disorder- ie he is on the spectrum. She recognised it early as she had seen it before. In the same way she could see that her eldest son had early signs. Poeple who blame the MMR tell a totally different story. Their children didn't show the early signs. They regressed dramatically. Sure regressive autism has been around- but most of those children, although regressing had early signs as well. To say that parents just hadn;t noticed anything was amiss, or can;t look back and see with hindsight that something was amiss is arrogant, and does nothing to "prove" safety of the MMR. No doubt there are parents who have been mistaken but that doesn't alter the validity of those who haven't.

No-one can say my posts aren't true as I'm not claiming much. All I am saying is that no-one knows whether there is a link or not. The research the govt claims proves MMR safety does no such thing.

Have immunisation rated fallen though? I don't think the DTP rate has dropped at all. There have always been people who haven't vaccinated. The figures only ever give MMR uptake- if those areas with low uptake have a high uptake of singles then the overall level of immunisationn is the same. The only one that will be lower is mumps because no-one can get hold of it. Even the dept of health doesn't try and claim that mumps is a killer. If rates of anything other than the MMR have dropped then please provide a link as I haven't heard that.

Go to a second hand shop and find an family health book from the 80's or earlier. Measles will be described as an illness that is "usually" mild with no long lasting effects. it will list the complications and describe how they are treated. It will point out that there is a jab available which you may as well get if you want. it will not talk about it being a killer though. rubella will point out the problems with the unborn baby and talk about girls having a jab, and mumps will be described as mild. I have never seen polio described as mild in a medical book. I came acorss the bit about gastroeneteritis when I was teaching a health course for A level Biology. it was in a book by the BMJ and listed polio symptoms. It said that the majority of cases led to gastroenteritis but that in a minority it could progress to paralysis which was often temporary. Of course it mentioned iron lungs etc as well.

I'm not really sure what you are arguing for? Do you think everyone should be forced to have MMR? Or do you think singles should be available? You say that mass hysteria is leading to falling immunisation. Is it? Only in the MMR, and most of the people who haven't had it will have had singles instead. The majority of people who have refused the MMR are like aloha- they have had singles instead and are hardly hysterical. You buy into the line that parents hadn't noticed their child was autistic and then you say that you wouldn't doubt the parents. So which is it- do you believe that the parents may have realised - even if only wth hindsight - that their child was autistic before. What about the bowel problems? Should they be looked at. Did parents just not notice that their child had chronic diarrhoea before the MMR. And what about the ones who regress at 4? If you are going to accept that the MMR is definitely safe and definitely not causing probelms for anyone then these are the questons you have to answer. You have to explain why 4 year olds are losing langauge skills, why bowel problems date from the same time. There may be an explanation but no-one has given it yet.

If you want to give your child MMR then fine do so. - As far as I'm concenred anyone is entitled to vaccinated their child if they wish with anything they want to. Just don't assume that parents who choose not to go down that route are a) hysterical or b) putting others at risk.

Interesting post Jimjams. I think that some Paeds are now changing their mind on the 18 months 'cut off'. I have a friend with a son with Autism, next son is NT and the youngest has just been dx'd under 18 months. possibly because the doc knows the famiy history. as an aside, the eldest was vaccinated and the youngest 2 were not.

hmb individual peads will diagnose early. However what "they" (being general here) say automatically - if a parent says "my child changed after the MMR" is - no they didn't you just didn't notice before because parents never do. it is very common for a parent to not suspect autism before 18 months - but once receiving the dx they will say "oh that's why they stared at the ceiling, screamed, seemed wild, watched trees etc etc, never pointed..." or whatever. Unless of course they did change after the MMR and they didn;t do any of the early signs.

My paed was so overjoyed to discover we'd had single measles. I think that "proved" to him that the MMR was safe. Of course he's just completely missed the point that no-one had ever suggested that the MMR or even the measles was involved. He lost language skills etc at 15 months ish- and when I rang Paul Shattock to discuss his test results the first thing he said to me was "although he regressed at 15 months it doesn't look from the results as if he was MMR damaged". I of course said I never thought he was as he hadn't had it! It's a pity that the 10% of cases who may have been damaged are lumped in with the 90% who weren't.

It is the MMR levels which is falling. It is my impression that the people who aren't choosing the MMR, aren't always covering with singles either (I know they are not available on the NHS andnot sure if they should be....)
No, I don't think people should be forced to have the MMR at the moment. If the levels of immunisation falls to low, I think people should be forced (or perhaps single vaccines provided although I don't see the point if we conclude the MMR is safe).
I am not saying everyone choosing the MMR are hysterical. I understand why some parents choose not to vaccinate their children too, but I believe the majority has no reason not to vaccinate. I am not calling specifc people hysterical. But I do think it's hysterical that the vaccination levels are falling when there is no proven link betwen MMR and autism. In fact, research has proven there is no link and I do believe this research. I don't know anything about autism, so I am hardly going to try to explain why 4 year olds loose their language or what parents have or have not noticed in their children. All I am saying is that I accept that research into this has not found a link and that this reserach is quite conclusive. Even doctors taking parts in Wakefield's study is now saying he was wrong.

a)I do think it is a lot of hysteria behind the fall in immunisation and b) I think failing to immunise puts other people at risk.

Oh I do give up You have given no evidence that the overall rate of vaccination against measles has fallen- only that the MMR rate has fallen. Where's then hysteria? If there was mass hysteria then the DTP rates would have fallen as well. the only hysteria comes from the pages of the Daily Mail and the corridors of the dept of health.

And you would force vaccination? What about the children who went on to be damaged by the vaccinations (and I'm not talking about autism- I'm talking about vaccination damage which is grudgingly recognised as occurring and for which the govt in this country pays out miniscule amounts of money- the US has a better system as it is funded by the drugs companies who pay a tax for ever vaccination they give- the more dangerous the vaccination the more paid per shot- DTP is the highest I think, followed by MMR with the DT and polio being considerably less taxed (as they are considerably less dangerous- its a goood system as it means there is money available for decent compensation amounts for people who pay the ultimate price for doing their civic duty-0 and the money doesn't coome frompublic coffers it comes from the drugs companies.). Surely parents should have a choice over whether this is a risk (however small) they want to take wth their child.

I think it is correct to say there is a general concern of measles outbreaks because the levels of immunisation is falling.
I haven't said I am for forcing vaccination now, but I might be if the levels of immunisation falls too low. Don't they say 90-95% coverage is needed to avoid epidemics? Maybe providing a single vaccine could be the answer, but then it needs to be proven that singles are safer. I am not sure it has been.....
I accept that I take a risk when I vaccinate my children. I think anything medical poses a risk. I see the risks of not vaccinate as much greater. I hope most parents do!

There is concern form the govt that the MMR rate is falling. Watch the news and listen next time they roll the figures out. They only ever talk about MMR. Also look at the lowest rates- they are always in places in Kensington and Chelsea- ie places where people can easily afford to make the choice. They do not give single vaccine rates as they don;t know them.

Of the people I know who haven't vaccinated

1. Has given her children tetanus. She started that appraoch way before I had kids, and I thought she was mad. I now think she was very sensible. 2)another has an autistic dd. She was lead poisoned - according to her lead levels she should have been dead- she was autistic before that though and therefore the thimerosil is suspect (heavy meatal transport and all that). It's a good job she didn;t give her ds dtp etc and he is epileptic and dtp is contraindicated.
2. Another mumsnetter currentyly on maternity leave - read her story in circumcision thread. 4)people at steiner schools that I know vaguely. Quite afew of their kids have had measles actually, and whooping cough. None have had any problems with it. 5)me- in the case of ds2, not ds1.
3. a vet from my antenatal group. She had some thing about vaccinations, but I never asked or enquired as I was pro at the time and thought she was mad. I'm not sure whether she gave dtp etc, but she didn't give MMR and decided not to go with singles either.

I know 3 other people who have gone for single jabs- not including people like aloha. Everyone else has gone for MMR. I know one of the singles group has struggled financially to pay for the jabs, but she has decided to do it anyway.

All the people in the other group would have chosen not to vaccinate anyway - regardless of scare stories. They would never have altered the immunisation rates. The ones who would have vaccinated have switched to singles, not to no vaccination.

actually where i live has very low rates, it is by no means like RBK&C. it is socially very mixed with pockets of affluence cheek by jowl with areas of acute social deprivation.