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Is it morally wrong to pay cash in hand?

181 replies

Liketochat1 · 24/07/2012 15:15

Should paying tradesmen cash in hand be seen as tax avoidance? According to the Tories it should. What do you think? www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-18968679 Hope the link works!

OP posts:
CinnabarRed · 26/07/2012 15:02

In Italy non-payment of tax is so wide-spread that it's factored into the nation's fiscal calculations.

If Italian small businesses paid all the taxes that they were legally obliged to pay then they would end up with an effective tax rate of around 120%.... But no-one pays all their tax and no-one chases them for most of it.

WhatWillSantaBring · 26/07/2012 15:26

I do hope that those of you who think that you deserve your money more than the government do not expect to be scraped off the street by an ambulance, treated in your local casulty department, drive on our roads or use your local school. Private schools, private medical insurance that includes emergency treatment, helicopters only for you, I'm afraid.

Yes, some of your taxes might go to things you don't like (I'm not a particular fan of my taxes paying for legal aid to the scum that nicked my bike, for example) but you have to take the rough with the smooth.

morethanpotatoprints · 26/07/2012 15:56

I think the problem arises when you are paid as a contractor working for somebody else who isn't declaring the income. You then are forced into being dishonest and not declare it yourself or risk getting the other person (your employer) in trouble.

CinnabarRed · 26/07/2012 16:19

HMRC is setting up four new taskforces who will specifically target tax evasion associated with:

  • Scottish pubs and nightclubs;
  • hair and beauty businesses in Northern Ireland;
  • the motor trade in South Wales, the South West, Yorkshire, Nottinghamshire and the North East; and
  • restaurants in South Wales and the South West.

HMRC will launch a total of 30 taskforces over the course of the 2012/13 tax year.

Kez100 · 26/07/2012 17:59

Paying cash is fine.

Not declaring cash for tax purposes is illegal. It is the tradesman with the liability to get it right and be honest. We have HMRC and they have the powers to investigate if they wish to do so.

The Government were daft to cut resources back so much in HMRC, the one organisation that actually raises money!

morethanpotatoprints · 26/07/2012 19:41

We have had/know several trades people who openly give you a vat free price for cash. You'd be stupid to say, no wait a minute let me give you more. Also you wouldn't get the job done they'd run a mile. I don't think its fair or right to ask them for a cheaper price though if they don't offer it.

GnomeDePlume · 26/07/2012 19:59

morethan - an awful lot of one man bands arent VAT registered anyway so it is possible that this was a discount that wasnt IYSWIM!

flatpackhamster · 26/07/2012 20:08

WhatWillSantaBring

I do hope that those of you who think that you deserve your money more than the government do not expect to be scraped off the street by an ambulance, treated in your local casulty department, drive on our roads or use your local school. Private schools, private medical insurance that includes emergency treatment, helicopters only for you, I'm afraid.

Yes, some of your taxes might go to things you don't like (I'm not a particular fan of my taxes paying for legal aid to the scum that nicked my bike, for example) but you have to take the rough with the smooth.

Just how rough does it have to be before the tax system becomes unjust? Should we all just say "Yes massa" every time the government raises taxes, because they're wise and all-knowing and benevolent?

DukeHumfrey · 26/07/2012 20:33

Because it's a crime not to pay your taxes!!!

Write to your MP yes I know how useful that is if you want to express your view about tax policy or government spending. You can't just decide you're not going to pay. Go and live in Greece or Somalia if that appeals.

PeshwariNaan · 26/07/2012 20:42

Why the focus on low-income cash in hand? A very convenient distraction from the fact that huge amounts of money are going through loopholes at the top...

DukeHumfrey · 26/07/2012 20:53

Evasion is illegal.

Avoidance isn't. Though many people find it immoral.

The weird thing is that many posters on this thread seem to think it is more morally wrong to do something which is not illegal than it is to commit a crime.

Fascinating social commentary.

CinnabarRed · 26/07/2012 20:57

No, we should all just say "yes" every time the government raises them because that's the law. And in a democracy the rule of law is everything.

mercibucket · 26/07/2012 22:04

Maybe that suggests the law should look a bit harder at the 'legal' tax avoidance so many people find morally repugnant and make it illegal then, DukeHumphry. Just cos something is legal, doesn't make it right (brief trip thro history)

I am paid cash or cheque. I could do it by bank transfer but not too keen on chasing up payments online - if I'm paid direct, I find it easier to record. I pay other people cash or cheque. Small businesses also get charged for small card payments (if they can afford a machine) and for cash payments at the bank. It's really hard when you only make a small profit. I've never been told I could get 20 percent off for cash. Maybe 5 percent but that's quite reasonable as a discount for a guaranteed form of payment.

flatpackhamster · 26/07/2012 22:22

CinnabarRed

No, we should all just say "yes" every time the government raises them because that's the law. And in a democracy the rule of law is everything.

So if the government raises income taxes to 99% we should all just accept it because that's what the government does?

No, that argument makes no sense. Democracies govern by consent. If there's that much tax evasion, it indicates that the government doesn't have the consent of a chunk of the population.

CinnabarRed · 26/07/2012 22:23

The very definition of tax avoidance is complying with the letter of the law. By definition, you can't make it illegal. Sorry.

CinnabarRed · 26/07/2012 22:27

Tax evasion amounts to £15bn out of total tax revenues of £450bn - it's only a small minority that don't comply.

If you don't like taxes then write to your MP, start a petition, march on parliament. That's how we protest in a mature democracy.

mercibucket · 26/07/2012 22:37

Nonsense CinnabarRed

It is perfectly possible to declare something that was seen as legal tax avoidance to now be (and also retrospectively) illegal tax evasion

Of course, in purely linguistic terms you are correct, but I don't think too many people are that arsed about the semantics of tax and its avoidance, both legally and illegally

flatpackhamster · 26/07/2012 22:40

CinnabarRed

Tax evasion amounts to £15bn out of total tax revenues of £450bn - it's only a small minority that don't comply.

That's a very exact figure for something that can't possibly be quantified.

If you don't like taxes then write to your MP, start a petition, march on parliament. That's how we protest in a mature democracy.

If your idea of a good citizen is someone who kowtows to every whim from the plantation house, then knock yourself out. You clearly have more respect for the chancers and imbeciles in Westminster than I do.

Denise34 · 26/07/2012 23:51

What business is it of the government if people want to pay each other for using each others services or buying goods from each other? I think sometimes the government forget just who is working for who.

CinnabarRed · 27/07/2012 06:44

Retrospectively make an act that was a legal one into an illegal one? Seriously? That would be an unbearable infringement of liberties. I don't like to run thin-edge-of-the-wedge-slippery-slope arguments but sometimes needs must.

For a start, who decides what is and isn't avoidance? We on this thread can't even agree on the morality of illegal evasion, so how could we agree an acceptable definition of avoidance? Suppose a UK business needs finance to expand and decides to borrow from a US lender (which means the UK borrower is entitled to claim a tax deduction in the UK but the interest income isn't taxed in the UK but rather in the US). Is that avoidance of UK tax? I don't think so. But i know people who do. The borrower could have borrowed from a UK lender maybe, in which case the income would have been all in the UK. Or perhaps some of the finance could have been structured as equity so that the return to the lender comes as non-tax deductible dividends. I think the borrower here made a perfectly reasonable commercial decision, but others don't.

What if a business is buying its stock from a sister company in Ireland. The tax legislation says that the UK company had to pay the same price for the goods it purchases as it would if the sister company was not part of the same group (the government doesn't want the UK to pay artificially high prices to the Irish sister company to strip profit out of the UK where it would be taxed at 24% and into Ireland where it would be taxed at 12.5%, while still keeping all the profits in the group). But the Irish sister company only sells its goods to related companies, so there aren't third party sales to benchmark the sales price against. So the group commissions a detailed economic study, which concludes that the Irish company would sell its goods to a third party at between £2 and £3 per unit. The UK company contracts with Ireland to buy at £2.90 At the upper end of the range but still within the range that an independent economist has said is reasonable. Is that avoidance? I don't think so. But I know plenty who do.

What about a self-employed husband who employs his wife in his business to answer phones and keep the books, for which he pays her a wage. She doesn't get paid much; just enough to cover her personal allowance and a little bit more. HMRC didn't like that; they thought that he should be taxed at 40% on the lot. So they took the husband and wife to court. And lost emphatically. They were basically laughed out of the room at every stage. The wife was working in the business, why shouldn't she get remunerated for it? Tough luck on HMRC that it meant she got paid at 0%, that's a natural outcome of the fact personal allowances exist instead of a flat rate of tax.

In a democracy we have the rule of law. Parliament makes law, HMRC administers it, the courts enforce it. That's the way it should work.

The courts can, and do, go out of their way to find arguments for why a tax avoidance scheme doesn't work. When that happens the tax avoider has to pay all the tax he tried to dodge, plus interest, plus penalties.

When the courts can't find a valid legal reason that a scheme doesn't work then parliament can, and does, change the relevant law. And sometimes retrospectively, so the scheme never worked. In which case avoiders (at least those who still have open tax returns) have to pay back taxes and interest.

But to make the retrospective changes such that the avoider, who had previously behaved legally, wad now criminal? No.

Suppose the government did the same thing to adultery. After all, many find adultery just as morally repugnant as tax avoidance. How would you feel about retrospective legislation that meant that anyone who'd ever had an affair in the past was now a criminal?

The courts can, and do,

reastie · 27/07/2012 08:28

Haven't managed to read whole thread Blush but feel really Angry about how this story is being portrayed - as if if you pay tradesmen cash they will automatically pocket it and not pay tax. DH has his own business and any money he is paid in cash gets paid straight into his business account and goes through the books so tax etc is paid.

genug · 27/07/2012 08:55

Makes you wonder what leadership means today when someone in power opens their mouth, it more often than not to bring out the divisive, rather than cooperative, in "human nature". Seems like our "leaders" like playing with the more base parts of our minds, rather than lighting up the more productive aspects. Or do we deserve the "leaders" we elect?

Of course normal people don't think paying cash to a "professional" is any different from to a " tradesman". Makes you wonder why the aversion to cash, perhaps trading in kind will be next in the firing line? Who would benefit from a cashless society?

CockBollocks · 27/07/2012 10:22

^Evasion is illegal.

Avoidance isn't. Though many people find it immoral.

The weird thing is that many posters on this thread seem to think it is more morally wrong to do something which is not illegal than it is to commit a crime.

Fascinating social commentary.^

Completely agree!!

CinnabarRed · 27/07/2012 10:38

Genug and reastie, you're right, the media are guilty of seriously misrepresenting what David Gauke said and I'm not surprised that you're Hmm or even Angry.

Absolutely nothing wrong with paying cash for anything. Nobody has said that there is. Neither had anyone said that tradesmen that accept cash are all dishonest. Not at all.

What is a problem is when the small minority of traders who are dishonest say to a customer that they'll charge £500 for job if paid by cheque or £400 for a job paid in cash. That's not the kind of discount that makes sense because the trader wants to save bank charges, or because he won't have to worry about credit risk - it only makes sense if he's planning to pocket the cash without declaring it.

tuckchop · 27/07/2012 11:17

probably not. Its just serious rich cheaters hiding behind a smokescreen

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