Why you shouldn't support legislation blocking internet porn

[Andrewjh]

Ed Vaizey and Claire Perry and a number of other politicians are trying to force ISPs to block adult content under the pretence of "think of the children", however this will have the opposite effect and could lead to children being exposed to far greater problems.

• Children these days are very tech savvy, especially with regard to the internet. And they need to be - the UK is the largest internet economy in the world. To succeed in the UK in the future, you'll need to know your way around a computer and around the internet from an early age.

• What happens when ISPs block sites is something called the Streisand Effect. Basically by banning it, they generate a huge amount of publicity and support for the sites. The Pirate Bay site last week got blocked in the UK, and it received traffic increases of 12 million users downloading millions of pounds worth of software, music, films and games. Blocking something increases its internet traffic, its exposure, and suddenly 30 times more people know about it than did before.

• What also happens when you block these sites is a huge amount of internet users figure out free and easy ways around the blocks. ISP's don't have the resources to stop this, and in most cases, it is impossible for them to do so. anyway. The Pirate Bay blocks can be got around within 20 seconds, and that is just googling "how do I get around pirate bay blocks".

• Many of the methods employed by users to get around the Pirate Bay blocks so they can illegally download files will also be posted as guides to get around porn blocks. These are accessible through any search engine (google, bing, yahoo).

• The problem is that tech savvy children (it only takes one to find out how from the internet or an older brother, then tell his friends, who tell their friends etc) can easily find out how to get around it. I mean it is as easily as it is to look up something for their homework, if not easier.

• The other more dangerous issue is that whilst once they've gone through those guides, they can easily find links to far darker sites which host horrific viruses, hackers, as well as references to drugs, drink and other adult content. They can also find links to anonymous chatrooms where they could meet anyone without you knowing.

• This is the danger that opt in and blocking poses. They will give you a sense of security when there is none.

• This is also based on the assumption that the block actually blocks all porn. They rarely ever do, and sites posing as sex education sites which don't get blocked get through with adult content. So you'll be under the illusion that the internet is safely blocked when it isn't.

Think of it like this. Imagine the internet is a cliff, and we are having a picnic at the top of the cliff. It's a mostly beautiful view, but if you let your guard down, you could fall off. You wouldn't let your child play near the edge. Installing the opt in system is like putting a strong looking but flimsy fence in place. You could be fooled in to thinking it was safe but left to their own devices your child, could easily fall through. We can't put a brick wall there otherwise it spoils the natural beauty of the view (the educational benefits of the internet).

So what to do? Firstly don't support legislation calling for blocks. It doesn't work, its been shown not to work in the past as well as more recently. Children can easily find a way around it, and in doing so find a far darker side of the internet.

Secondly: If you are concerned, use censoring software on your computer, but don't be content with just that. Use Browser tracking software like this - www.any-activity-monitor.com/free-browser-history-recorder.html so you can accurate tell what your child has been viewing, even if they delete it off the browser. There are also many simple, free and easy tutorials written online on how to better protect your computer and your child.

Thirdly: Take some time to talk to your child about internet use. It can be an amazing tool but it can be dangerous. They need to know that right and wrong, safe and risky, they all still apply online (something easy to forget I assure you). They'll avoid things if they know its wrong. They will be curious about things if its only blocked.

Lastly, don't be fooled by people using the "think of the children" line. It's an alarmist appeal to emotion. There is very little danger so long as you use your common sense and only allow a child a sensible amount of time on the internet. As a politics student, I have to question whether this has been saved up till now to gain support for the government after an miserable turn in recent polls.

Thanks very much for reading, I hope you'll consider your position.

"Its shocking how easy it is to see porn within seconds by anyone, of any age. Sign up to individual sites only, I say."

Exactly - that's what I think!

Most women do not want more censorship. It is a slippery slope. We should be lobbying to remove what we already have which is far too much as it is.

Your child could be watching porn on a DVD at a friend's house. Should we start a campaign demanding that, by law, all DVD players should be barred from playing 18 certificate DVDs unless you write a letter to the government saying that you want to watch them?

Are you saying that you would happily give an iPad to a child and let them use it to connect to the Internet unsupervised but neglect to install any kind of net filtering software on it? Wow. Top-quality parenting there.

Unless you plan to spend your life looking over your kids shoulder everytime they go near the internet, its just a ridiculous notion.

And there we have the core of it. "I know there's all kinds of stuff on the Internet that is not suitable for children but I can't be arsed to monitor them."

How well does ISP filtering work?

I have a suggestion for an experiment for this. Download K9 on to your computer. It is free for one computer, and regarded as one of the best filters available.

It has extensive easy to follow instructions on how to set it up. I suggest you set it at the highest protection levels to emulate what the ISPs would do. Now off you go and surf the internet for a week or so(overiding and blocks K9 may put in place is cheating!) Report back.

Experiment aside, those of you who are responsible parents and not internet pervs really should have something similar in place already.

If you have any problems setting up your home filter there are plenty of tech types here who can help you. Why wait for the government?

You see you have contradicted yourself there Snorbs

On one hand you admit there is a chance your kid could see a dvd at a friends house, the next snide comments about ipads and parenting.

So what is it to be? Are you going to supervise your kid everytime they leave the house too in order to be a top quality parent? What if your kid looks at mates ipad? The possibilites are endless.

Or as the first part of your admits we cant supervise our kids every waking moment.

Am I being too naive but why can't all computers come with a built in filter and then you simply take it off if you don't want it? There must be lots of adults like me anyway who never view porn and have no wish to- it would be available for those who want it. That isn't censoring anything or even asking people to pay anything.

They do. AFAIK all microsoft computers come with parental controls built in. You do need to turn it on though.

That's an interesting idea though, would it not be a good idea to legislate that all computers sold with Microsoft Windows should be sold with parental controls already turned on and set to high?

Animation wrote "It might not work for all kids but what kind of argument is it then to do NOTHING."

When this came up a while back (refer to the 'MN Campaigns' thread linked to early on) the suggestion wasn't to "do nothing" but to emphasise education for parents about the perils of the internet and safeguards they could easily implement.

"education" has been stressed from early on as a realistic alternative to the blunt instrument of an ISP-based filter [aka "block"] (which just won't work well for a family that has a range of ages and the elder members need access to more sites than their younger siblings).

There's *> Netintelligence

Beachcomber wrote "here is a really radical idea. Porn producers are legally obliged to sign up to a xxx register."

Unfortunately what might be "legally obliged" in one country cannot be forced on others, and porn site owners would simply move to get out of jurisdictions which imposed any such rules.

The internet "works" because someone with an idea, anywhere in the world, can (generally) have users worldwide for their site/ service (excluding restrictions such that might mean they cannot legally operate - eg the gambling rules seem to treat NI differently, since the late night TV roulette games say they cannot have users from NI).

Beachcomber 10:51 wrote "Um folks your internet access is already controlled, why are you protesting against this particular type of control?"

Oh please, dear IT expert, Beachcomber, enlighten me on how my internet access is already controlled? Serious question.

I think the only pages/sites deliberately blocked would be those relating to child porn (which I would have no interest in anyway) flagged up by the IWF (though their history shows they can sometimes get it wrong!).

Hint: I have more than one internet connection here.

AFAIK all microsoft computers come with parental controls built in

No they do not. Microsoft offer this as an optional download but most parents will not have heard of it.

Starwisher. I'm not saying we have to supervise them at ALL times. God knows I'm not always in the same room as my kids when they are on the Internet. But the fact it's in a communal space should be sufficient deterrent for them.

You are absolutely correct we cannot supervise our kids at all time. It simply doesn't work. That's why the missing ingredient in all this is education. ISP level blocking is a form of state sanctioned supervision and as you already point out, we can't do it.

As for your sign up idea, it just goes to show how little you understand how the Internet works.

You cannot legislate your way out of this problem. Criminalising it in the UK will do sweet FA. If you want to tackle it, you can do it now.

Here you go:

K9 Internet security

Microsoft Live Essentials

Two free programs. Why wait for the government to take years to block something you can do in minutes today??

Seems simple to me then-let the default position be parental controls on.

niceguy2 - just noticed on the Netintelligence page that Comet seems to be advocating (if not supplying) the Netintelligence software on PCs they sell.

Seems a good idea, but it's only a partial solution while some parents will get an iPhone for young Jimmy... and internet access of course...

So we have a mobile contract that Jimmy himself could not get because of a lack of credit rating, so it is automatically less one restriction (network details may indicate an adult user) ... All it needs then is a small fee charged to a credit card owned by the parent if the network needs further proof... and probably automated so no need to speak to customer services at all...

I'm going to accept that if my child sees porn or other unsuitable media at a friend's house then that represents a social issue not a technological one.

When my child is at a friend's house then the parents of that friend have a duty of care towards my child. If it transpires that they have had access to something clearly unsuitable then the way I would address that is education and, if necessary, banning my child from going there again. Note how I would not call for laws to force all DVD players to have mandatory content filters on them.

While my child (or the child of another parent) is under my roof then I am the one with the duty of care. So I would be failing in that duty of care to simply hand my child a fresh-out-of-the-box iPad and let them wander off with it to do with as they wish.

Similarly I would be failing in my duty of care if I left my 10yo DD and her friend with in a room on their own with a copy of Trainspotting in the DVD player and then couldn't be arsed to make sure they weren't watching it. And if they did watch it without me realising then I'd consider it a personal failure on my part to parent appropriately. I would not throw my hands up, claim that it's impossible to keep an eye on what they're doing and hence absolve myself of all responsibility.

A big yawn to this well-worn argument that parents can't be arsed to supervise their kids.

The problem of PORN on the internet is much BIGGER than that. It's like saying that if there's 10 people shagging outside your front door - supervise your kids and keep them indoors.

I don't want all this porn automatically assessable on my computer anyway - it's intrusive and offensive. Individuals who want to look at it should SIGN IN to a relevent club. It should be more controlled, and I would like the government to legislate to start cleaning up the internet, because I don't want it - there's too much of it!
porn automatically available like it is.

"Animation wrote "It might not work for all kids but what kind of argument is it then to do NOTHING."

When this came up a while back (refer to the 'MN Campaigns' thread linked to early on) the suggestion wasn't to "do nothing" but to emphasise education for parents about the perils of the internet and safeguards they could easily implement. "

And how about we encourage and educate the porn makers and consumers to steady on a bit and put some controls in place on accessability, like setting up controlled internet clubs where there's protocols and a process to follow when assessing their porn.

I agree with you Animation.

And not because I can't be arsed to supervise my children and neither can my friends.

I also don't want porn all over the shop for me.

Porn DVD's aren't allowed to be sold to minors yet internet porn can be - why are we putting up with this double standard?

Animation. If YOU don't want all this porn accessible on your computer then the best thing to do is use the parental controls listed above. The solution is better than ISP blocks. That doesn't work!

The government cannot simply legislate it's way out of the problem anymore than they can legislate for sunshine. What they can do though is put in place a well thought out package of measures. But that's not what is being proposed. Not at all.

Niceguy - my problem with porn is why is it so EASILY accessible and not censored as an 18 DVD would be.

My family are all good and safe, and well educated thank you ;) but I don't want all this massive uncensored 18 material automatically available. There should be a process - for those who want to view it. I suggest a club which you log on to!

Animation :to answer your own question, put K9 or similar on your computer, set to high protection and see how it impacts your families browsing...

My computer and TV are protected thank you all!

But what I'm wanting to get to is dealing with the ROOT of the problem. PORN PORN PORN PORN PORN EVERYWHERE!!! And kids who are not protected will be able to see it at the click of the 'enter' key - because it's not 18 censored.

I would like the government to ensure all porn gets an 18 censureship and puts measures in place to prevent it's automatic accessibility - like for instance, promoting internet porn clubs.

"censorship"

I don't object to your goal Animation. It is worrying how easily accessible porn is on the Internet.

But as I keep saying, the current proposal's are not the solution.

Perhaps you could have a word with the Person In Charge of the Internet, Animation?

"As for your sign up idea, it just goes to show how little you understand how the Internet works."

Sorry, but what are you talking about?

In the good 'ol days tube sites didnt exist. If you wanted to look at porn you had to sign up and and pay to that website.

I want it to be the same, though the sites could remain free the credit card is a tool to prove you are over 18. I dont want tube sites (i.e the pornographic answer to Youtube). I want people to have to sign up to pornographic sites.

Its shocking how easy it is to access with one keyword. I want it to be members only.