Does anyone fancy a non bun fighty chat about the University of Ontario study which claims to find that childcare damages middle class children?

[Treefutom]

The link to the Telegraph report is here

I have more questions than opinions on this, tbh. And as I'm not clever enough to find out how to get the actual study report I don't know what to make of it.

What I do know is, it's the kind of thing that would have made me feel terrible when DD1 was in childcare. But that it also makes me now feel terrible as a SAHM of a 20mo DD2 because it claims that not being in childcare helps a middle class child's development and I am pretty sure that I don't do anywhere near as many things with DD2, development-wise as I'm certain a nursery would.

So I still feel shit

i'm a sahm

I really, really could not give a shinny shit.

Why only middle class?

Also is Middle Class got something to do with genes?

To me it's just another report to make mothers feel bad - if it's not sahm /
wohm; its ff vs bf; organic vs non-organic. etc etc etc.

Take it with a pinch of salt - if your child is happy and healthy, then you're probably
doing things right irrespective of what any research says.

Yes the middle class thing is very That's why I'd like to see the study - how do they even define middle class.

I also have lots of questions about the quality of the childcare, does it only cover the state subsidised nureries they mentioned? What about nannies/childminders? How many hours is considered damaging? How do they define 'damage'? Why are 'very able' children not damaged? etc etc

I read it as nursery is beneficial to disadvantaged children i.e. those with crap parents who watch tv all day and exceptionally bright children i.e. those who are so clever that their parents bore them and damaging to the majority who fall into neither category. Think that's what the 'middle' is all about.

I have access to U of T - will try and get a copy of the report.

However, I am currently feeling very torn about having my DCs in (a very good) childcare place (that they both love) so it might make me cry to read it...

Depends a lot on the quality of the childcare really. I've no idea what it is like in Canada. And the age of the children.

As I understood it though, the children who are most helped by nursery in this country are those from disadvantaged backgrounds, so that bit kind of makes sense. But as someone else said, how did they define middle class?

Would be interested to read the actual study.

The trouble with all the studies that pitch nursery care against home care is that, ultimately, it is the quality of the care in a particular nursery for a particular child versus the quality of care by a particular parent for a particular child that is going to matter.

Given the generally very nice home environment in which my DD spent her first 2.10 years before going to école maternelle I couldn't, hand on heart, believe that nursery care could ever have improved upon it. But we are just one family.

Ok, looked at the article in the telegraph (haven't managed to find the article yet but given that it was presented at a conference, it might not be in published form yet)

A few things stand out -

1. these guys are economists rather than psychologists or educational researchers which seems odd
2. they were looking only at state-subsidised care which could be relevant
3. they were looking specifically at a new scheme in Quebec and the children apparently were worse off than their peers in other parts of Canada.

I am currently dealing with new childcare/school system being introduced here in TOronto (start of full day kindergarden in the school my DD will attend) and it is very frustrating as we are not getting answers and it looks like the organisation of it could be a bit shambolic despite grand promises of a "seamless day". I wonder if the effects on the "middle class" children could be partly related to the stress and expectations of "middle class" parents coming into this susbidised scheme where before they would not have been subsidised rather than the childcare itself. Parents might not have got their first option of placement, for example, and so have to commute further and not get the time they would like with their kids leading to this?
This is purely off the top of my head and I don't know the details of the quebec scheme but just a sort of starting point.

It's one academic study that the paper will have spun in a particular way. No single study could claim to have found the ultimate truth (even if that were possible) about that huge question, it's not how research works. It's bollocks. As are all such newspaper reports of such studies.

I haven't read the actual research but I am immediately sceptical because there are so many variables, I do not see how any study could successfully account for all of those. Unless research can be replicated, I don't see what evidential value it has.

How did they factor in the almost infinite number of variables that exist for every family? What happened to the children on weekends for example? What kind of input was there from friends, extended family, were the parents introverts or extraverts? How long did the perceived differences last? Well into secondary school, into adulthood?

Personally, I think it is all woolly bollocks. Some children do bettering child care than others. But given that only a hundred years or so ago we would have been putting them up chimneys or down mines, I can't give much of a toss.

What about the poor little girl shot in Stockwell whose family were nearly evicted as they can't pay the rent? I would rather get het up about the impact of that situation on her emotional development than whether some toddler is slightly stressed out by messy play at his rather nice and comfy nursery.

I am honestly fed up with these kind of studies.
I don't care, and I agree with Bonsoir re the particular care of a particular child in a particular nursery versus care in a particular home by a particular parent.
And how exactly do they define middle class?
I might be as middle class as my neighbour, but I might have different ideas on how to parent a child. My neighbour might be better at crafts, and I might be more affectionate etc etc, iyswim...

Mine went to nursery part time, there they did different things than those they did at home.

if you search for the ROyal Economic Society - click the link to "conference", you can download the conference programme and maybe find the abstract for the research paper in there which should have a bit more detail. I have downloaded it but need to go now so don't have time to search through it right now!

I don't know about studies really. If you think you are doing the best for your child, if your child and you are happy with what you do then forget about the research.

Don't forget research doesn't deal in absolute truths, not in the behavioural sciences. There is no 'right' answer. All that any research says is that if you do x then y is more or less likely to happen. It doesn't mean it will/won't for certain. As Bonsoir says, you have to look at individuals.

Treefutom - Imo you may feel you are doing less than a nursery does but is all that a nursery does absolutely necessary for development or just a fun thing to do for the sake of it? Nothing wrong with doing things for the sake of it but I wouldn't stress over them doing more than you. Besides, so long as they are loved and their physical needs are taken care of, children have a habit of growing up just fine all by themselves.

Interesting. I'm going to read this now.

We live just outside Toronto and Quebec is (in)famous here for it's $7/day childcare. I have no idea about the quality but we have some middle-class, dual-professional friends that seem happy with it. I'm interested too Mooncup, to see how our "All Day Kindergarten" will take shape next year. Our son is currently every-other day Junior Kindergarten and will be going to SK every day next year. Our school is in the midst of building an extension to accommodate this program and I have mixed feelings about the whole thing.

Well the assumption seems to be that middle class parents won't do all the things middle class parents generally do if they send their DC to nursery. That they will consider those things outsourced.

Now whilst that may be the case for DC in nursery for very long hours and where parents are busy and exhausted, I would imagine that that is not the case for the majority.

It also assumes that parents of DC at home full time will be undertaking those activities. Which may or may not be the case.

Its not just about the nursery but also the paricular minder in that nursery.

I didnt send either of my children to nursery nor did I stay home full time. I was lucky to have a wonderful grandmother available for childcare. Now we are in Paris, that isnt available but I do have a nanny for the baby.

Its a personal thing and I dont have any gripe with good nurseries but it just wasnt for me.

Personally I'm pleased ds was in childcare (a nursery) as it have him a wider experience of life and increased his vocab imo. I was working at the time and hence the nursery. It worked for our family and I have absolutely no regrets and ds cannot remember his time there even though he wasn't a baby but a toddler.

92% of Danish mothers work outside the home. The proportions of men and women in the workplace are almost the same. Subsidised daycare and shared parenting is the norm for Danish children. Danish society does not appear to be any more or less damaged than anywhere else .... QED.

Well Denmark has topped polls for happiness. So perhaps they're doing it right.

Not totally sure about Denmark but don't think it is that simplistic that they must be doing it right. Many parents in Sweden don't go back to work till the child is over 12-16 months. Also there are suggestions that women still are not totally equal in the workplace in terms of their fields and progression. Sickness rates of mothers also are sky high (over 20%) and there are plenty of people there who want more time with children. Choice is taken away. The only care favoured is state daycare and not homecare/childminders and even grandparent care. I don't see it as better at all! In addition, ratios can be quite disturbing!

In regards to this article i really don't know.My eldest went to nursery f/t and is doing well. She has always been the most demanding as is very headstrong. I also became a SAHM before she started school so she hasn't always had to use childcare. I think it depends on the child. I do think nursery care is better for older children rather than babies but that is just a personal view from what I have read/studied and experienced. Everybody should make their own choicefor their own DC.

No it's not that simplistic. That's why studies like this can't be used to try and prove the ultimate 'truth' about childcare,

"Well Denmark has topped polls for happiness. So perhaps they're doing it right"

Possibly - or maybe there are other things that contribute towards their good quality of life.

In the UK housing costs and commuting costs are amongst the highest in Europe, and we work longer hours here than anywhere else.

I personally think that high housing costs + high commuting costs + long working hours + expensive and inconsistent childcare make for a particularly poisonous mix for families.

I think, to be honest, that the way these studies are presented are generally irritating. As said, "middle class" already is a term that represents so many different behaviours, values etc etc.

I think that the need for childcare for working (and also not working, in RL people can't always be with their children 24/7) parents can't be erased.

It'd be much better if studies were directed at raising the level of care offered at nurseries, and money invested in making sure the staff is competent, professional, and obviously dedicated.

verity, haven't read the report or anything, just skimmed the news story, so take this with a pinch of salt, but my understanding is that working-class children benefit from nursery care because they're getting more stimulation and interaction than they would at home. Whereas for middle-class kids the reverse is true.

I imagine the upper-classes don't use nurseries much:-)