Autism in France - Le Mur - a shocking documentary, with English subtitles

[Bonsoir]

There was a thread on this a couple of weeks ago...although the more exposure this gets the better as far as I am concerned!

Bloody hell! These people are deranged

They seem as mad as a box of frogs. How anyone believed any of this guff in the past and even now, amazes me.

Imagine all the guilt the poor mothers are going through

Awful. I thought France was an 'educated' country

I don't think this represents French thinking, rather 'psychoanalytic' thinking. They mention French pseuds like Jacques Lacan, but they are also admirers of the English, Winnicott, with his "good enough mother" guff.

I think it's about psychoanalysts rather than French doctors.

You get people who believe any old tripe in every country, just look at those who believe in "climate catastrophe".

claig - I agree that the documentary rightly portrays "psychoanalysts" rather than "the French" as the proponents of psychoanalytic treatment for autism.

But what you need to know is that there is very little alternative treatment for autism in France. The psychoanalytic establishment is largely responsible for treatment of autism.

Those theories sound weird and quite male centric, blaming mothers a lot.

Here is a very good quote by Germaine Greer which hits teh nail on the head

'Freud is the father of psychoanalysis. It has no mother.'

and here is a quote from Jacques Lacan, which I think shows his delusions of grandeur, but also shows what can happen if people give it too much credence

'Psychoanalysis is a terribly efficient instrument, and because it is more and more a prestigious instrument, we run the risk of using it with a purpose for which it was not made for, and in this way we may degrade it.'

Oh, I didn't realise that, Bonsoir.

I know that the French like 'philosophes' and intellectualism, which is why they are often drawn to pseudo-intellectuals, but I didn't realise that these people dominate the establishment. Very sad.

This is a classic case of the emperor has no clothes

oh is this the one where they talked about autistic children 'rejecting language'? is it upsetting or interesting enough to make it worth the risk?

I should say some French people, not the French, as there are many very clever French people.

It is interesting and worth watching because it shows what can happen if groupthink takes over and if critical thinking is abandoned,. It is a lesson to us all. You can draw parallels with many other areas of groupthink such as "climate catastrophe".

There was something about this on R4 just last week . . . wish I could remember what it was, I think it was 'All in the Mind', and there was a short piece on Freud's legacy. One of the negative legacies was this business that autism was somehow to do with maternal coldness.

So hurtful to mothers. Imagine being told you were 'to blame'. And now it seems it might be something more or less to do with biochemicals in the developing foetus. Vitamin D, perhaps? I can't remember.

imagine? Don't have to imagine, have served my time in family therapy over the years (not autism related)!

someone told me about the documentary and it did sound interesting but so outlandish I suspected embellishment

Watch it, it is interesting to watch these people who are utterly convinced that they know what they are talking about, and believe the canon of psychoanalysis with more certainty than many religious believers believe in God. Lunatics have taken over the asylum springs to mind.

The documentary is absolutely chilling.

Two lowpoints stick with me:

The hyper-smiley female psychotherapist explaining that ALL mothers have sexual feelings toasted their babies and the only problem is the ones who act on their inevitable sexual impulses. When questioned, she insists all mothers have these feelings whether they are conscious of them or not. My italics, obviously.

And the other, older psychotherapist with the crocodile and the pencil. For those who haven't watched, she gives autistic (and other) children a rubber crocodile toy to play with, and a pencil. If the child whacks the croc, all is well, as the croc represents the phallus and the whacking is a rejection of the phallus. If the child puts the pencil in the crocodile's mouth ('insertion'), then it's red alert and confirmation of incest / sexual abuse.

I watched it months ago, so I am paraphrasing from memory but honestly I don't think I will ever forget their sanctimony, let alone their barmy, dangerous, outdated ideas.

Claig: France remains only one of two countries (with Argentina. Who knew?) where Freudian analysis is prevalent.

You don't hear about the 'Terrible Twos' here, when your 2 yo is being over energetic and pushing boundaries, you hear about 'la phase Oedipe'.

It runs right through French society, paediatric medicine, education.

CBT is almost unknown and very hard to access.

'Constellations de famille' are well used by families having problems with teens etc.

It is harrowing.

Family constellations for the uninitiated

'You don't hear about the 'Terrible Twos' here, when your 2 yo is being over energetic and pushing boundaries, you hear about 'la phase Oedipe'.'

C'est incroyable! How come there is nobody who challenges this tripe and uses logic to counter this quasi-religious guff. France is the country of Descartes, Pascal and Voltaire, how did this pseudo science gain such prominence?

Oh, and it is important to note that the film-maker, Sophie Robert lost her legal battle with three of the psychotherapists she interviewed who said she misrepresented them.
A judge ruled she must remove the film from the internet in it's original form (ie with those interviews) and pay damaged of ?12k to each of the three.

This should be a national scandal in France.

Moliere is the master of describing human folly. Reading about the pretentiousness and credulity in 'Le Bourgeois Gentilhomme' and 'Le Malade Imaginaire' probably explains how people can fall for tripe.

Greythorne that crocodile stuff is teh opposite way around. Watch it again at 2.24.

It is Lacan's "mother crocodile" and the doctor says she is happy if the child hits the crocodile because that means the child is fighting, and the objective is to stop the crocodile eating and they do this by putting the pen (which symbolizes the father's phallus) into the crocodile's mouth. This represents the father's law and stops the mother from eating etc.

It is weird stuff.

Claig
You might be wpright but it is all a crock of shit!

that it certainly is!

As someone who works next door to a major research centre into autism, I can only be grateful that I live in a country where science and research are valued, learned from and implemented into clinical practice.

It sounds to me like the French establishment are ignoring anything new - basically putting their fingers in their ears and going 'lalala I'm not listening'.

And of course psychoanalysis takes years, which proves that at least psychoanalysts are good at something - making money.