People feeling under pressure to wear a poppy.

[schroeder]

Yesterday on the bbc news a very interesting conversation about the increasing pressure people feel to wear a poppy seemed about to start, but was cut short. It was something to do with football shirts I think.

I feel this is a conversation that should be had. I work with the public and feel uncomfortable every year when it is expected of me to wear one.

It's not the wearing so much that bothers me, but that in doing so I am supporting a charity I would not support otherwise.
Surely we should not all feel forced to give to this charity whether we like it or not?
I do not think even the British legion woud want poppies to be compulsary?

[OracleInaCoracle]

No, but the final sentence was directed at people like me. Stating that you do make a judgment.

[OracleInaCoracle]

No, but the final sentence was directed at people like me. Stating that you do make a judgment.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

grumpy, I don't think people who choose not to wear poppies do so because it's 'difficult' or because they're too lazy for this 'positive action'.

Why is it so hard to accept not everyone sees the world the way you do?

[OracleInaCoracle]

Damned twatphone

[OracleInaCoracle]

Damned twatphone

[grumpypants]

Really? I have to explain the difference? No thanks, this is one of those threads that just divide opinion too much. Good luck with the debate; I am too tired to engage meaningfully.

[KRITIQ]

I haven't personally felt pressure to wear a red poppy, but I am aware that this seems to be increasing.

I understand the views of those who accept that those who served in WW1 and particularly WW2 "fought for our freedom," and mostly had no choice as they were mainly conscripted. Those who have served in conflicts since that time have done so voluntary and these were politically-motivated conflicts, not in defence of the country.

The Royal British Legion promotes the poppy campaign by linking it to those who are serving now and more recently. They will also be the main beneficiaries of the funds raised as few WW2 veterans are still alive. Surely it is understandable that those who have opposed the expensive, often fruitless, politically motivated military conflicts of more recent years would feel uneasy at doing something which is taken by many to show support for those conflicts.

The White Poppy was introduced in the 1930's by the Co-operative Women's Guild to challenge what seemed to be a headlong march into another world war and has come to recognise and remember all those who suffer and die in war, military personnel and civilians. The latter are far more numerous than the former in modern wars. The White Poppy isn't intended to rival the red nor diminish the contribution of service people, but to call for alternatives to war. There's more info here on the Peace Pledge Union site.

Unfortunately though, it does seem that many mistakenly believe the white poppy or even the absence of a red poppy means the person is disrespectful, disloyal and unpatriotic, when it's nothing of the kind.

And, before someone shouts, my late dad was seriously wounded on Iwo Jima, and I have a nephew currently serving in the US Navy and two in the US Marine Corps. They all got/get what I'm talking about.

[SolidGoldVampireBat]

I agree with Jon Snow - the fact that it's worthy of news coverage when someone on a TV show doesn't wear a poppy suggests that there is an unhealthy attitude creeping in ie that supporting one particular charity is compulsory or ought to be. Of course, there are plenty of whinyarses ready to have a go at people who don't donate to Comic Relief or Children In Need (and there are plenty of good valid reasons to object to both of these big charity wankathons), but when people start suggesting that the absense of a poppy on your lapel means you are a foreigner or a traitor or 'attention-seeking' then that's stemming from the same mindset as all those ridiculous wankers ullulating outside Buck House when Desperate Di got creamed - the ones showing their 'compassion' by demanding to see the princes crying.

[mayorquimby]

I've heard a few people that have expressed an uneasiness with the way the poppy has been hijacked by a lot of the tabloid media as a bit of a "sport our troops" exercise and that it is now being worn by most as a symbol different to what it once was.
That it no longer does signify a dignified remembrance of those who fought and died for freedom in WW1 or WW2, but that it has taken on a new interpretation in how many of them perceive it. Most of them feel they will probably still donate but will not wear the poppy symbol. TBF having seen this advertisement theinspirationroom.com/daily/print/2009/11/wear_a_poppy_soldiers.jpg I can see why many think that the focus has changed to it being a support of more recent politically motivated wars which had nothing to do with conscripted lads fighting for the countries freedom but everything.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

WWI and WWII are so, so different though - even before we get to other wars. I think virtually everyone reacts with sadness and horror to WWI but it is no longer really within 'living memory' to any but the very oldest. No soldiers are still alive. Personally, I feel uncomfortable with a lot of the rhetoric of WWI - including that poem - because I find it hard to feel at all glad or sad we won that war. I just can't feel anything but shocked at the waste.

WWII feels very different - we're taught so much about Nazi Germany it is very, very hard to feel simply that that war was a waste, or that it was in any way unimportant who won.

I know that's over simplifying but I do think the differences are important. And differences multiply and multiply with each different war.

[mayorquimby]

stupid laptop cutting me off agin:

but everything to do with wars enterred into for the wrong reasons.

[OracleInaCoracle]

totally agree with mayorquimby.

I cant help feeling that if we wear poppies in support of our brave troops, we should also be wearing symbols to show our support of our brave policemen/women, firefighters, hospital staff....

I support them, and donate to charities that support them. not wearing a poppy doesnt make me unpatriotic or selfish, I just choose not to advertise my "goodness"

[exoticfruits]

I don't see a problem, lissielou-do whatever you like but other people are free to do what they like.

[OracleInaCoracle]

exoticfruits, my point exactly. I just expect to not be judged (as some posters on here have said they do) for not wearing a poppy. just as I dont judge anyone who wears a poppy.

[exoticfruits]

I don't see any pressure. Half the time I have had one and lost it-I don't care what others think-I know that I contributed-I really don't have to be seen to have contributed.

[OracleInaCoracle]

i once worked at a restaurant where the owner tried to make all the staff wear a poppy, I refused. however, I have seen on FB/twitter etc lots of posts along the lines of "those who dont wear poppies should be ashamed etc..." it doesnt bother me, I know that I do my bit etc... if this thread hadnt come up, I wouldnt be discussing it.

[NewGirlInTown]

It is an absolute honour to have the freedom to wear a poppy. You are supporting the honour and courage of the individual soldier, not the political machinations of war. We will remember them.

[CointreauVersial]

I haven't time to read the whole thread, but I'll give my opinion, fwiw.

I was just commenting to DH the other day, that buying a poppy is the one thing I do without question every year; I don't know why, but it just seems to be the right thing to do, especially in this current climate, with Afghanistan etc. It's almost traditional to support this charity.

Having said that, the poppy sellers came to the door the other day while I was in the shower. The DDs answered the door, and reported back that the nice lady gave them a lovely poppy each FOR FREE. Cue long explanation about charities etc. My donation to the tin-shaker selling poppies on the high street yesterday was more generous than usual!

[OldGreyWassailTest]

Well said NewGirl.

[OracleInaCoracle]

Newgirl, It is an absolute honour to have the freedom to wear a poppy

No, it is an absolute honour to have the freedom to choose to wear a poppy. Big difference. My respect is no less than anyone elses, I just show it differently.

[FrightNight]

So on behalf of my grandfather who sailed one of the Little Ships back and forth from the horror of Dunkirk, I thank god that I have the freedom of choice to wear the poppy, and thank you for doing so.

I shall be at the Rememberance service on Sunday, lest we forget.

[BeatrixBlackMambaKiddo]

I have been quite emotional and proud watching a small queue of youngsters queue to buy a poppy from an old man in a tube station. Made my day (happened a couple of years ago)

[GothAnneGeddes]

I was going to link the Peace Pledge Union, but I see KRITIQ has got in there already .

I wear a white poppy because I am a pacifist. The best way to honour those who died in the war is to not have any more wars.

I am very uneasy with all the talk of heroes and the sanitising of the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan and I say that as an army brat.

[Stigmata]

It is naive to say that as those who fought in WWI & II are now ALL dead, it is no longer relevant to remember what happened, and many many old soldiers would say that it should show you why you don't want any more wars to happen.

It is also naive to say that anyone joining the military now knows what they're getting themselves in to. Many join because they feel they have no other way out. Many because they are pressured into it - as an answer to many different kinds of pain. I will never forget being on an overnight boat to in the Med. with dozens of 20 year olds who were being shipped out (quite literally) so taht they didn't spend their R&R in the local town. There were recent local problems. Anyway, they had all served in the previous year in the Serbo-Croatian area, and seen "real" carnage, and I would say they were a boat-load of PTSD cases waiting to be assessed. It brought back to me the stark reality, talking to some of them, that they went into it THINKING they knew what was going to happen, what they were going to see, and none of them had an f'ing clue.

Meanwhile, for those who go into the military with their eyes genuinely wide open and with ideological aims of making the world a safer place, they are not immune to the fall-out of real-life combat.

My father was a refugee in WWII. He was rescued with his two small brothers on the beaches, and as they headed for England, their boat was strifed by gunfire. His father stayed as part of the Resistance network. He was grassed up as he tried to leave via the Spanish border, and taken back to Auschwitz. He suffered from lead poisoning because he was involved in some kind of manufacture in there (ammunitions?).. but then murdered. We understand is was pretty much the day the War ended, although from teh goverment report we received, I doubt he would've survived much longer anyway.

My whole life he had flashbacks, nightmares, depression. He had a completely fractured family life, until he met my mum at the age of 40. He went into the RAF because he wanted to be in the war, and wreck some kind of havoc on his father's murderers, and was angry that he'd missed it by a couple of years. He always wore a poppy and always refused to march on Remembrance Sunday, because he was mourning privately, showing respect, but didn't agree with the pomp and circumstance and everyone getting together with "the good old days" stories. People have very different experiences of war.

He felt that is WAS that big an issue, wearing a poppy did remind everyone that the face of the world changed during those wars, and he felt that many many men in the wars since were similarly damaged by what they experienced, and certainly their families. He saw no difference in the outcomes, and that's what it's about. Those left after the wars, not the wars themselves.

Sorry, that is ridiculously long; my mum happened to send me the eulogy I wrote for my dad this week, and I hadn't read it since his funeral.

I think Schroeder, you need to understand that, just because it makes you "uncomfortable", and just because it has been taken over by corporate/ media/other factions to mean something else, doesn't mean you can use that as a reason to get rid of it, or stop it being worn as it is. If it continues to be overshadowed by such conversations, I hope it will continue to remind some of what they need to be grateful for.

Without lowering the tone, it's like saying that feminists did all their work so that girls can get their tits out if they want, and consider themselves liberated. I would call it deluded. I agree with previous poster, sometimes you just have to shut up and deal with it. We may not like war, we may not agree with what other people make the central issue, but you cannot shift the argument. It happened, it needs remembering, have some manners.