Major traffic incident on M5

[magicOC]

Horrible horrible traffic accident at junction 25.

My thoughts go out to all those involved and relatives of those people who have lost their lives.

I'm guessing they'll be looking at CCTV so will have loads of vehicle drivers to contact from that and also info from people far nearer timewise ie those who managed to pull up just behind.

People on the news said it was like emulsion paint,fog can descend very suddenly as have been caught out myself in the past and had to literally come to a halt in seconds.I'm guessing that must have happened this time.

Tis strange though.We witnessed far worse driving on the A303 back home Sunday.It was rammed and there were fast car drivers ahead literally tail gating in packs,bullying people out of the fast lane.We just hung back in the slow lane.

"I wonder what we can learn from this"

It'll be the same as always, unfortunately. Speed appropriate to conditions, leaving a good distance between you and the car in front, not making sudden lane changes etc. I think the patchy fog that was reported to be around that night is by far the most treacherous kind. Far worse than snow, ice, thick fog, heavy rain because, in those conditions, everyone is travelling relatively slowly. Add some low-lying firework smoke to patchy fog and one minute they'd have been travelling in clear conditions at normal speeds and the next it would have been like driving into a blanket. Very sad but could happen any time.

Nettee I do agree but it seems (media, could be crap) they ignored advice from professional fireworks organisers who said not to proceed 2 years ago due to m-way proximity; if we are going to move away from a blame culture we need to start taking repsonsibility. Saying that I am perhaps over focussing as my friend was absent on Friday night and is a fireworks coordinator and I am petrified it was his group who are, as the news says, 'talking to the police'. He has not posted on FB since, Dh is with mutual friends right now and will ask.

If there are not minimum distances for fireworks from main carriageways there should be; same for those lighted lantern things that come with notices about it but get generally ignored.

But nobody really knows yet and I don't want to assume: I am someone who likes a cause / reason though and am not very good at 'random chance'.

Cogito probably so.

I know the fog was quite dense as I was trying to count how many parcans were still working in our sign as the rain had damaged the float (sheer force as opposed to water damage)- so directly comparing visibility with the other carnivals so far. It was a strange fog, sort of visibly hovering.

I must admit I cam quite concerned that the media seem to be leaping ahead and quoting 'the police' towards a conclusion that it was the rugby club firework display that caused this terrible accident.

It seems though from reading this thread and listening to witnesses on TV there seems to have been a very extreme weather phenomenon in the area which may well have created what amounts to 'a cloud' at ground level.

A traffice accident investigator (on Sky) also mentioned a stream that runs under the motorway near the accident and said that is known to be a factor in creating sudden fog banks on motorways.

I just hope the police/politicians don't get swept up in the hysteria and blame the rugby club when in reality it was a freak accident caused by an extreme weather condition that no one could have forseen.

For me, the fire is a far more important factor in this accident than trying to find someone to blame for the crash. Again people seem to be blaming lorry fuel tanks but what JaneBirkin said about insulating foam in refrigerated trucks is possibly the most important issue here that needs immediate action.

As I say, I just hope the police and investigators get time to do a proper job and politicians don't railroad conclusions through and look for scapegoats under media pressure.

This also happened that night a few miles away showing what it was like in the general area quite well.

Just a slight tangent from this story.

A few years ago farmers were banned from burning straw in fields after harvest, in part because smoke blowing across motorways was hindering visibility.

Would it be feasible to ban all outdoor bonfires/fireworks on the basis it might cause a traffic accident? Is there any law in place to prevent people burning bonfires now? Will this accident cause a change in the law? Would that be an over reaction?

Will we come to a point where private individuals, organisations and local councils simply refuse to have public firework displays to avoid legal liability? Is that the outcome we want - even if it turns out that the bonfire had nothing to do with the accident?

Don't really want to criticise people's driving, when they have died and I don't know enough about it. But some drivers I have seen could do with taking better account of conditions.

That pileup could well have happened on the A9 when we were there a few weeks ago..it was foggy and wet and we could barely see because of spray on the windscreen and people were STILL zooming past us at at least 80mph..madness.

I thought something would have been learnt from the previous fires such as in that tunnel, MoreBeta. It appears not.

Fridges are really flammable - the ones in our homes, too. Something ought to be done about it.

Also in relation to your further question, I would think an exclusion zone around motorways would be a good start, for bonfires and such.

I don't think a firework display should be blamed. They didn't even have a bonfire. The conditions were shite, for sure. I certainly don't think raising the speed limit, had it happened prior to this, would have helped anyone at all

MoreBeta- surely it would depend on proximity to the roadway?

Smoke billowinga cross from is one thing: lighting fires for entertainment / releasing lanterns another. IF it's tyrue they were advised not to hold the event there then presumably some H&S concerns had been raised.

But also presumably no law in place as the well known large hotel next to a motorway near us had a display on. So whatever difference it was that meant professionals wouldn;t do rugby club at that time but would take on Celtic Manor may be where people need to look?

On another note, not sure about the reports earlier that four people in one car were killed.

It now seems that there was a lass and her father from one family, the other daughter is in hospital. And an elderly couple from Newport. And then possibly three lorry drivers.

It's all horribly sad.

It's possible people could be distracted by fireworks, even if no visibility issue, isn't it.

I suspect 2 of the lorry drivers were coming from or to from our warehouse . The company they worked for picks up our goods and delivers them to on of our customers.

Probbaly orm; I know what high a % of our fleet we would run in and out of there after all.

People could be distracted by fireworks but AFAIK reports said they had ended by that time.

peachy - they were from Samworths. They do a lot of the distribution for a large retailer beginning with A!

I shall ask DH Orm if he knows anyone there.

Always a high chance he does- used to do the subby contracts for TNT in the region after working at Langdons so met so many drivers

It turns out the person from my school died in a different incident not this one, I think people got the wrong end of the stick when they heard as it was such a big accident for the area. Either way it is sad and has affected lots of people in the town here.

It is sad to put faces in the paper to the names we've read about this weekend. It is still playing on my mind loads.

I would presume that the Highway agency would of had to have ok'd this event due to the position of the motorway and the closeness of the rubgy Club.

Highways Act 1980.
Danger or annoyance caused by fires lit otherwise than on highways.

(1)If a person?

(a)lights a fire on any land not forming part of a highway which consists of or comprises a carriageway; or

(b)directs or permits a fire to be lit on any such land,

and in consequence a user of any highway which consists of or comprises a carriageway is injured, interrupted or endangered by, or by smoke from, that fire or any other fire caused by that fire, that person is guilty of an offence and liable to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale.
(2)In any proceedings for an offence under this section it shall be a defence for the accused to prove?

(a)that at the time the fire was lit he was satisfied on reasonable grounds that it was unlikely that users of any highway consisting of or comprising a carriageway would be injured, interrupted or endangered by, or by smoke from, that fire or any other fire caused by that fire; and

(b)either?

(i)that both before and after the fire was lit he did all he reasonably could to prevent users of any such highway from being so injured, interrupted or endangered,that he had a reasonable excuse for not doing so.

We already have heard that one pyrotechnic company refused to hold an event in the rugby club due to the proximity of the motorway.

Yes, that section of the motorway goes over the River Tone so it's possible there was fog rising off of that.

The weather was also bad all day here in Somerset with heavy downpours and patchy fog and mist.

I will wait to hear from the Police accident investigations and not speculate.

I can't help thinking that part of it might be the way that almost everyone on the motorway drives so close to the car ahead. Stopping distances as per the Highway Code are completely ignored. I am not blaming the poor sods caught up in this at all - everyone does it, you can't leave an appropriate gap because someone nips into it. But maybe we need a mass public re-education campaign or something off the back of this, to remind people why you need to leave a stopping distance and how far it should be.

Speaking to my father who has been a (somerset based) HGV driver for 40+ years and driven off (and along that section of road) that slip road thousands of times in all weathers,he still thinks it's too much of a coincidence with the fire work display.He can't recall fog that bad alongside the river tone or any other river in England before.

I tend to side with his experience but I still wait for the police report.

You get it by the Parrett on levels rarely but that's one odd area.

Dh says there are lots of laws covering 'particle distribution' (that'd be smoke then) near motorways (he has a qual in pyrotechnics though has never used it). So if there WAS a breech- IF- then the law should be clear.

Am glad to say my pyrotechnician friend was working in London that day. Phew!

Was a carnival last night and was told some horrific stories by people close to the emergency stories , doesn;t mater how much you are apid, I suspect some things will stay with you forever, and I doubt the people at the call handling offices get paid much anyway.

They are saying now that witnesses might have confused the combination of smoke from the inferno and fog with smoke from the fireworks display, that footage shows that there was very little smoke from the display and it was over before the crash.

Agree with Edam re stopping distances, I notice that, especially in bad conditions, like on that night, where the roads are wet and visibility is poor, people don't seem to adjust their distance from the cars ahead much to compensate. I do, and so I just keep getting over taken. Public re-education campaign would be good. But I think that many more lives would be saved if the campaign reminded drivers about cyclists.

There's a big campaign about motorcyclists running atm here in Wales, is it not in England? That one would easily extend to cyclists.

Agree about stopping distances: we were in misty fog on that rod (Burnham stretch) last night and checking the 'only a fool...' thing: but every time we left a gap wide enough some idiot jumped into it. rather defeats the aim.

As we do +++++++ mileage we have said when we can afford it Dh might take the advanced lessons (my eyesight is slowly dwindling so my yeras of driving are numbered).

Just thinking today it was a short time ago the government was saying about raising the speed limit, hopefully they will have had second thoughts now, if the speed limit was higher there would have been a bigger mess.