Praise the Heavens - Greece is holding a referendum

[LemonDifficult]

I was wondering when someone would, like, mention Democracy.

The Greek PM has played a political blinder. He's refusing to take the historical buck for the austerity measures, he's making the people listen to his message, and he's making sure that whatever details get thrashed out on the latest Euro Zone Package have to go Greece's way so that the Greeks will approve it.

Oh, and he's also doing the morally correct thing in a democracy and putting this massive piece of legislation to the Greek people. Respect.

And proof that the markets don't like democracies (not really) they're falling. Not good that bankers thought we lived in a world where they really did have the last word.

I should have put after my rhetorical question about France and Germany. France is in the merde if Greece goes, that's why Sarko is worried, and Merkel will get herself unelected after this if she continues to bail out other countries when Lisbon forbids it.

Sorry Scary - Bugsy bows to superior analysis of situation, than her windy tree!!!!

What makes you think Belgium has the cash? There were murmurings a while ago that Belgium was on the ' to watch' list after Italy, Portugal and Spain. The funny thing is everything trolls along with a government, which begs the question of why we need politicians anyway?

What gets me is the sheer bloody hypocrisy of Germany and France when they whine about Greece. It's Germany and France that have ridden roughshod over a legally binding treaty (Lisbon) which specifically stated no bail outs; Lagarde has admitted this, so the IMF will now be a beacon of legality .

Germany and France have broken the rules and the law, so why shouldn't Greece play them at their own game?

Scary - has it all got something to do with the slightly diverse reasons for the creation of an economicaly connected Europe in the first place? I can never quite work out whether the rationale is political or economic & if sometimes one drives the other or vice versa etc.

It's pigheaded pride imo. I have never seen the rationale behind the Euro; EMU didn't work, so why the hell would a single currency?

I also think the markets are having a game here; they've tilted at Greece and caused panic, they'll go for Italy, Portugal and Spain next, and we will be in the same situation again, except even more treaty laws will be broken to backstop them.

A lot of this also is to do with the EU gravy train, and all those poor fonctionnaires (and Clegg, the Kinnocks and Mandelson) watching their nice little sinecure float off down the Swannee. There is a lot of money involved in being employed by the EU and some very comfortable lifestyles being funded by it, hence some very vested interests.

The reason for the creation of the Euro was I think to force the pace of integration; but those who planned it didn't quite twig that for some their own country is, and always will be more important than the EU.

blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/janetdaley/100115292/eu-threats-to-greece-become-more-hysterical/

It's like playground bullying.

This gives an amusing broader perspective & mentions Greece debt first:

Debt

I liked that!!!

This is cool too, I love the idea of unicorn pinatas (sp?) I want one.

Greek Debt explained

Looks like Greek PM may resign & a coalition will take over!

headed by an ex ECB vice president.

Looks like I was 100% wrong in my OP and G Pap hasn't played a blinder at all. At all, at all...

In my defence, nobody saw this weeks events coming, could still go either way, too close to call, who knew?....etc, etc.

If only in politics, people could put their hands up & say " I was wrong". Too much macho posturing & positioning in the real world.
Without your original post Lemon, I wouldn't have understood as much of what was on the news last night because of the discussion this thread (well, that is until I got really distracted by the cat going into No10 Downing Street).

Breaking news on SKY - referendum scrapped.

So that just kicks it further down the road then. Civil unrest in Greece will go on for years now and the markets will turn their attention to Italy next.

It feels like we're living in a house of cards.

If I was Merkozy, Greece would not be my choice of holiday destination any time this century.

Well, what are we all supposed to think now?! GPap to stay? GPap to go? Should someone sack that Italian botox warning?

GPap is not resigning. He says he was bluffing re referendum to get opposition clowns on board austerity package.

OP and others who thought referendum was such a great idea. Did you really think that any of this had to do with a romantic ideal of true democracy?

"They have never lived in a proper democracy, never"

Greeks? The very nation who invented democracy 500 years before Jesus Christ?

The problem is not lack of democracy, they've had more of that than any other nation. The problem is their national habit of lying to authorities & cheating on their taxes, corruption, mistrust in government, extensive borrowing they knew they had no way to repay. Greece has become a banana republic.

The reason I was keen on a referendum was because I thought, had there been time to discuss it, that the Greek people would have had to take ownership of the issues.

Keeping it in the parliament being voted on by representatives is not the same thing in this case - there are people rioting in the streets shouting that they aren't being heard. When ther is such a big gap between political class and the public, then the public needs to be got back on board. Afterall, they are the ones who will be working to pay down the borrowing for the next million years.

scary - re "their bloated military. Greece considers itself to be at war (Cyprus, Turkey etc)"

Turkey has the 6th most powerful military in the world with over 600K active military and over 400K reserves. Greece's is 33rd with about 150K active military and 250 reserves. It is not by trying to increase the numbers of their soldiers that they can ever hope to protect themselves from a conflict with Turkey, but by staying in the EU at all costs.

All their public sector is bloated, by the way, not just the military.