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I Need a Lesson in Basic Economics. Why Don't We Print More Money?

132 replies

Tortington · 19/09/2011 16:33

I was reading this when i decided i needed a lesson in basic economics.

I was talking about the state of the country with my SIL the other week when her 17 yo daughter said " why don't we just print more money"

i Naively said something along the lines of it all being relative and that if you print a lot of money, the money that you are printing wont be worth anything.

then the article linked to above - kind of made me think i need a lesson in economics.

its not very readable that article i don't think - but please read it and tell me why printing money is a good idea?

OP posts:
AnyFucker · 19/09/2011 20:20

We all have our strengths (and weaknesses...)

thecatatemygymsuit · 19/09/2011 20:23

THanks to the braniacs on this thread. I can pass on cryptic crossword tips Smile.

niceguy2 · 19/09/2011 20:28

"when a country is in debt (ie Greece springs to mind atm) - who is it in debt to"

Basically governments 'borrow' money from banks and other financial institutions, like those who will one day pay our pensions. This is done as people above have said via treasury bonds but in essence its borrowing.

The problem is that this borrowing has got out of hand. If Greece was a person, they'd have been on 'bank of mum & dad' a long time ago and bailiffs would be removing their TV. Greece has been the European equivalent of the spoilt teenager who's gone out spending money on their credit card on whatever crap they could do. To make matters worse they've not bothered with things like tax collection and dodging tax is a national pasttime.

But to compound the problem and this is where the scary part is. The bank lending Greece the money probably didn't have the money. It borrowed some of it from another bank. Who probably didn't have the money, so they borrowed it from another bank too. And so on.

So the biggest fear right now is not whether or not Greece will fall. It's what happens to the house of cards once they do. Directly the UK doesn't have a massive exposure to Greek debt. Neither do the US. But our institutions have lent a lot of money to a lot of banks who in turn may have lent to Greece.

Now imagine it's not just Greece. Greece is just the worst of the errant children. Portugal, Italy, Ireland, Spain and the UK have all been doing the same. 'Luckily', Greece is a small country with a relatively small economy which means the other EU nations can bail out if necessary. If Italy goes the same way, there simply isn't enough money in the pot.

And the only thing which has saved the UK is the fact we never joined the Euro so we can print our own money, we can set our own interest rates and we can devalue. Something none of the other countries can.

DrNortherner · 19/09/2011 20:29

This thread hurts my brain, but I like the cake analogy.

AnyFucker · 19/09/2011 20:33

Bad back anyone ?

Roastchicken · 19/09/2011 20:58

Why can't more money be printed and prices remain the same?

Suppose that a house is for sale, with two bidders chasing it. Initially, each has a limited budget, so Bidder A bids £100,000 and Bidder B £105,000, so bidder B wins. The Government then prints money and gives everyone an extra £25,000 to spend. As both bidders still want the same house, and now have more cash, they can 'afford' to spend more. So they each increase their bids on the house. So bidder A now bids £125,000 and Bidder B, say £130,000. The result, is the same house sells for a higher price.

In short - the reason why printing money leads to higher prices is that it leads to more money chasing the same number of goods. That is, it increases demand, but not supply. Of course, the increased demand may result in increased supply (i.e. more houses being built), which is what the BoE is hoping for, and that would boost the economy.

CoteDAzur · 19/09/2011 21:07

Greek should never have been able to borrow that much and with such ease. And wouldn't be able to, if it were not part of the Eurozone.

Because it is part of the Eurozone, it was able to borrow at the same Euro rate as Germany and France, for example, who have much stronger economies and much better financial situations.

"The bank lending Greece the money probably didn't have the money"

Not sure what you mean by this. If it didn't have the money, it wouldn't have been able to purchase the bond (i.e. lend the money).

You are right in saying that all banks have debts as well as assets (like government bonds), so when one fails, that effects others. But that is to be expected. If you studied this stuff, you might remember the corporate finance calculations that show it is better to raise funds through corporate bonds, for example, rather than issuing shares after a certain point.

Tortington · 19/09/2011 21:12

so thats what bonds are

i see bonds in movies

bonds being stolen from banks etc

so bonds are like a certificate of debt belongong to a certain country?

OP posts:
CoteDAzur · 19/09/2011 21:20

Bonds are certificates of debt.

Sovereign bonds = sovereign debt = gilts = treasury bills (t-bills) = debt issued by countries

Corporate bonds = corporate debt = debt issued by companies

Leverage = gearing = another term that refers to the debts of a company

Tortington · 19/09/2011 21:27

crikey i have learned loads today

thank you!

OP posts:
CoteDAzur · 19/09/2011 21:36

You are very welcome Smile

niceguy2 · 19/09/2011 21:37

Not sure what you mean by this. If it didn't have the money, it wouldn't have been able to purchase the bond (i.e. lend the money).

Well say my mate wants to lend £1000 from me. I think "Hmmm, i'm a bit worried about lending him so much money. It might leave me a bit short and I've lots of other people all asking to lend money from me."

So I decide to borrow £800 off another friend and lend him £200 of my own money. But my friend thought exactly the same and borrowed some off his mate and so on. I then lend to another person in the same way and so on.

To make matters worse, at some point my friend of a friend of a friend may have even asked me to lend him £100, so he could lend it up the chain....for me.

The problem is that conventional wisdom was that government's (western ones anyway) do not default. So there was absolutely no risk of not getting their money back...or so they thought. It's like a gambler in a betting shop betting on a "sure thing".

CoteDAzur · 19/09/2011 21:42

I understand what you meant, but that is not a good analogy of bond markets because the players are not mates, they are not in it as a favor to each other, and a bank can't buy a bond (i.e. "lend") if it doesn't already have the cash to do so.

niceguy2 · 19/09/2011 21:52

ok sorry for teaching my grandma to suck eggs. I accept the details are scant but the gist is there.

The thing I find fascinating is that all the banks did almost act like a big bunch of mates or should I say lemmings. What they did seemed almost normal because all their other 'mates' were doing the same too.

happybubblebrain · 19/09/2011 21:59

Another thicko question from me - is pretty much all of Europe, America and all other countries that are supposedly in recession all in debt to China? It sounds like we all owe them big time. What about African countries? Who are they in debt to?

happybubblebrain · 19/09/2011 22:02

I think words like 'national deficit', 'recession', 'economic downturn' are a smokescreen, but then I have no understanding of economics, I only know that we are usually being lied to.

nocake · 19/09/2011 22:09

What you've missed out in the explanation of QE is that the Bank of England doesn't just throw the money into the financial system. It demands something in return... Assets. So if a high street bank wants £1 of the new money they have to give the Bank of England £1 worth of assets. These can be a range of things like gilts and bonds. This means the banks have the same value of assets but instead of them being non-liquid assets they are now cash which is liquid and can be lent to people.

CoteDAzur · 19/09/2011 22:17

We are all suspicious of things we don't understand. If you know what those terms meant, you would not think they are meaningless lies.

There are some very intelligent people analyzing and questioning economic data & announcements by central banks & governments. Discrepancies and inconsistencies would be quickly noticed. It is highly unlikely that any lies would survive for long - notable example being how Greece lied about its finances.

CoteDAzur · 19/09/2011 22:21

nocake - Exactly what I said Bo:

CoteDAzur Mon 19-Sep-11 18:50:06
They don't "give" printed money to anyone as a gift, btw. Bank of England buys treasury bills (its own bonds) back from banks. That means, banks now have much more cash than before. That cash has to go somewhere, and a lot of it gets lent to companies and individuals. These companies then invest (economic stimulation) and thes individuals then consume/construct/buy (more economic activity).

CoteDAzur · 19/09/2011 22:26

"is pretty much all of Europe, America and all other countries that are supposedly in recession all in debt to China?"

America definitely is. I would need to check European countries separately but don't particularly want to spend hours doing that, tbh.

You need to understand why China (and Japan, and Korea) are doing this: To keep the value of their currencies low vs USD so they can export easily to the US. They do this by buying loads of USD, thereby increasing its value against their own currency. And what woud they do with all this USD cash? They buy US treasuries (country debt).

edam · 19/09/2011 22:26

Cote - would these be the same intelligent people who screwed the entire world economy and who didn't notice the crisis coming? Like the ratings agencies who thought fancy products derived from US mortages were fine and dandy? God knows why anyone gives any credence to any of them, tbh.

This attitude by the financiers that 'we are so jolly clever, you little people are too dim to understand, don't even think about questioning what we are doing because we have designed out all the risks' is exactly what got us into this shit in the first place. Got us into it as in the general public - most of the people who caused this have got away with it, of course.

CoteDAzur · 19/09/2011 22:27

Exactly what I said below, not "Bo"! Bloody auto-correct on iPad.

CoteDAzur · 19/09/2011 22:36

Edam - I was referring to economists as the clever bunnies who analyze economic data, not subprime dealers. You are making the mistake of thinking of tens of thousands of finance professionals as the same person, who is Guilty.

The general public is welcome to question and criticize the financial system and its products, but at the very least needs to understand the basic terminology and underlying principles in order to do so. Posters on this thread are not exceptionally ignorant about this stuff.. Finance has become so specialized that unless you are educated in it, you don't have a hope to properly understand it. Like medicine. When two doctors talk about some medical procedure I've never heard of with terminology that sounds like a foreign language, it flies completely over my head. The same happens to majority of the general public upon reading financial news.

nocake · 20/09/2011 08:28

Oohps, I should read better rather than just scanning the thread Smile

I studied economics at uni so have a better than average understanding of economic systems. However, I don't have a clue about the various financial instruments the investment banks have come up with. TBH I suspect most of the people in the banks don't understand them, which is one of the reasons they got caught out.

AbsDuWolef · 20/09/2011 09:00

If you really want to understand why giving everyone £25,000 wouldn't work at getting the UK out of economic problems, I recommend watching the Futurama episode where they're each given 300 space bucks. Tis very educational.

America is heavily in debt to the Chinese, as the Chinese have been buying up lots of US government bonds for years.