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Original poster

So, what do we think?

68 replies

santaslittleunicorn · 12/12/2005 23:20

lethal injection

Do you agree with the death penalty?

My primary thought so far, is, why has it taken 25 years?

Surely a death penalty should be executed (apologies) asap?

OP posts:

bloss · 13/12/2005 22:39

Message withdrawn

JingEllBells · 13/12/2005 22:47

OK point taken about the difference between deserving punishment and exacting it. However, you did say that there were 'plenty of crimes where you'd be justified in executing the perpetrator', which did sound as if you meant that such an execution would be OK to you, morally.

I honestly don't know what the Hebrew would say. Latin is as far back as I can go! But language is always open to interpretation anyway.

bloss · 13/12/2005 23:27

Message withdrawn

Original poster

santaslittleunicorn · 13/12/2005 23:56

I started this thread (and then dived for cover)

FWIW...

I don't agree with the death penalty - but I can totally understand the urge for 'retribution'.

I think it is a gut/primaeval feeling which is beyond rational discussion.

What really bugs me when I 'discuss' this issue is how people try and justify the death penalty as a deterrent - when in reality it is simply a case of getting even.

Surely all of us, as parents would intrinsically feel the same if our kids were murdered?

BUT
Shouldn't the state/legisaltors etc be above gut reaction?

This case is particularly awful on many levels....
and particularly (repeating my first post)keeping a man 25 years... and then killing him.

For what purpose does that serve... other than politics?

OP posts:

JingEllBells · 14/12/2005 00:15

Thanks Bloss. I was looking at this site, which I sometimes use for work, and which has 10 different translations. I went to the Vulgate because it was the earliest one there. I think that the distinction between killing unlawfully and killing in war, say, is quite understandable and probably still relevant.

Otherwise, we'll have to agree to disagree!

GemgleBells · 14/12/2005 00:15

Of course we would feel the same if it were our kids. If someone, God forbid, killed my Dd I would want him hung, drawn, and quartered, but I wouldn't be in a rational mind to make that descion.

And your right Santaslittleunicorn, the state/justice system should be above that as they are detatched from the case. If the justice system were about revenge they would let the victims of a crime decide punishment.

At the end of the day we have to ask if anyone has the right to end anouthers life. Be it a man on the street, a judge, or a senetor. What qualifys a person to make that decision and call it lawful? We must inprison people for these things to protect the public. Does that mean they're beyond reform? Are we saying that like leopards we can't change our spots and improve ourselves?

bloss · 14/12/2005 00:24

Message withdrawn

Original poster

santaslittleunicorn · 14/12/2005 08:09

bloss - I guess the answer to that takes us back to the rights and wrongs of taking away someones 'right'to live.

Who are we to decide that?

OP posts:

Epiffany · 14/12/2005 08:22

If it looked like it was a deterrant to homicide then I'd at least see why they wanted to kep it.
If it was cost effective, I'd understand that.
It's neither
It's revenge, it takes so long because of the yards and yards of litigation/retrials, appeals and so forth, which makes lawyers rich and costs the US state a bomb in defending and in legal aid.
It would be cheaper to commute death sentences to life without parole. If they did so at the outset.
I wonder whe the US will examine its attitude to criminals against its rate of violent crime and come up with a Eureka moment.
And with detention, at least if there is a miscarriage of justice, the person is not dead.
So distancing myself from whether it's morally and ethically wrong, I can see flaws in it from other angles too.
It doesn't do the job it is in place to do.

GemgleBells · 14/12/2005 09:20

I don't think our moral feelings are gut instict Bloss. For example if Dh cheated on me it might be my gut instinct to (and i hope I never find out) slap him, cheat on him, or even kill him in a crime of passion. That doesn't make any of those things right. And my moral feelings would tell me that. Whether it would stop me depends on how strong my morals are.

bloss · 14/12/2005 11:06

Message withdrawn

GemgleBells · 14/12/2005 11:08

It would be wrong because he vowed not too. He made me a promise to be only with me.

PeachyPlumFairy · 14/12/2005 15:02

I think the thing about the Bible contradictions as I uderstand it, is that the Bible is generally an evolutionary story (I was taught this both by the local vicar and my secular Professors) which takes you through time to the point where the Vatican selected the Gospels they wished to keep, and that became the foundation of the modern Church.

With regards to Judaism, it's not so clear. there does appear to be a tradition in Orthodox Judaism of being pro-death penalty BUT that's dependant (from what I could work out- would be interested to be corrected, have an essay on this next year) on individual interpretation of the Torah, and Reform judaism is traditionally anti death penalty. It's often very difficult to ascertain a single homogenous Jewish appraoch to things: there are many variants.

I have also read writers from the Orthodox background who believe that the Holocaust was the death penalty for being Jewish, and as such that Judaism cannot justify the penalty.

As for the translation of the commandments thing, my Western Religion lecturer uploaded a powerpoint on the subject today (great timing!) and as soon as I can get Dh to sort a bug, I will take a look.

PeachyPlumFairy · 14/12/2005 15:06

OK, from what I can see Hebrew is Thou Shalt Not Take Innocent Life (debatedly- see see here RE Hebrew Discussion ) but KJV is Thou Shalt Not Kill.

I may well be confused, only been on the degree a term... trying though!

slug · 14/12/2005 16:20

So much for the Christian doctrine of forgiveness bloss.

bloss · 14/12/2005 22:35

Message withdrawn

GoodQueenSpursmum · 14/12/2005 22:44

Don't know if this is going to make much of a difference to the discussion but following on from Epiffany says about cost, I read somewhere that it can cost over $1 million dolllars to execute someone!

WhenAChildIsBored · 14/12/2005 22:51

My twopennyworth:

I am completely opposed to capital punishment in all forms. This isn't a gut reaction but an intellectual, reasoned viewpoint based on my considered opinions of what is good for society as a whole. I don't want my children to grow up in a society in which cold, brutal, ritualised killings are legal and acceptable. I just think it adds something unhealthy to the consciousness of everyone who lives under the regime.

However, this doesn't mean I feel sorry for the evil murdering monsters who usually get the death penalty. I am as horrified and contemptuous when I see someone like Ian Huntley or Harold Shipman as anyone else. And anyone who harmed one of my babies would be well advised to watch their back. It's the health of society and the normal individual that concerns me and makes me opposed to capital punishment, not some bleeding-heart squeamishness about punishing criminals.

And the legal system doesn't exist which inspires me with enough confidence to trust it with people's lives.

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