To ask pro-choice MNers to email your MPs? <this is not a request to vote on anything>

[EricNorthmansMistressOfPotions]

There is an article here about the proposed amendments to the health and social care bill which will force women to undergo 'independent' counselling before being allowed to choose to terminate a pregnancy. The assumption is that BPAS and the like have a financial investment in encouraging women to terminate and as such their counselling is biased. The stated goal is to reduce the number of terminations per year by forcing women to delay between seeking and receiving termination, and having to undergo additional counselling (political bias unknown, though easily guessed at) prior to the termination. ND hopes that woman will change their minds during this enforced extended waiting period.

If you think this is a shit idea you can email your MP by clicking this link

This is not a request to vote on anything at all

Dhokotera, are you female? If so I find your attitude towards women having to make the most heartbreaking decision to abort after 24 weeks truly sickening and you are an embarrassment to our sex.

Surely that's just another extreme stereotype in line with the 'careless silly women' idea. What about women whose lives aren't 'fucked up and full of problems' but just don't, for whatever reason, want a baby right now? Why does it always have to be about extremes?

"for the vast majority there are no long term effects." surely this latest study casts a bit of doubt over that statement.

We are talking about the causes of mental health issues, not stereotypes. I am quite legitimately pointing out that the circumstances leading a woman to choose abortion are likely to cause depression etc irrespective of the procedure itself.

Are 60 000 abortions a year really brought about by rape. Sorry but I am not about to believe some sorry story. Abortion is so easily accessible that many women do it repeatedly and no one seems to care. And to Shakisrasma of course I am a woman, a feminist researcher for that matter but with this issue I am rather more objective than most.

And I'm pointing out that not all women who choose abortion would fall into that category - would wanting to further your career/feeling you don't want any(more) children at this point in your life/being a bit new in a relationship/being too young/old to want to continue a pregnancy be reasons likely to cause depression? I'm more inclined to believe that the majority of abortions are likely to fall between those categories than the 'fucked up and full of problems' scenario that you are presenting.

In case some of you missed it here is a bit of objective investigative journalism that bares the truth about abortion counseling or lack of it.

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2031572/Abortion-Mail-writers-investigation-counselling-services-poses-disturbing-questions.html

Bumbley. I know many many many people who have had at least one abortion, none have any depression or even moments of it.

That's great posie but anecdotes don't prove anything.

Women can only abort after 24 weeks if their life or health is in danger, or the foetus will not survive the pregnancy or childbirth, or has severe disabilities.
The statistics show that pregnancy and childbirth are far moe dangerous to a woman's health than abortion, and studies have shown that in actual fact prenancy and childbirth is twice as likely to cause mental health problems as abortion.
very few women have more than one abortion, and if they do then they have their reasons. A woman whose health is in danger from prenancy is not suddenly going to be cured the next time she gets pregnant, a woman who wants a child bu has a genetic problem which means she has to end up abortiin the foetus is not going to be cured automatically.
Abortion should be accessible, it is the women;s health, life and body, she is the one at risk from prenancy, she should be the one to make the choice
And at the end of the day if you disagree with abortion do not have one.
And not one person has put any evidence forward that pro-choice oranistations such as Marie Stopes push women int abortions. Not one piece. They also ignore the fact these organisations also provide contraception, safe sex advice, and sterilizations all thngs which decrease unwanted pregnancies and therefore abortions.

Dhokotera's link again

"studies have shown that in actual fact prenancy and childbirth is twice as likely to cause mental health problems as abortion."

Do you have a link to that?

"objective investigative journalism""Daily Mail"..

Dhok,
It is allowed if there is a serious risk to her physical and mental health
And Bumbley,
The mental health risks anti-choice campaigners like to associate with abortions have been debunked. The British studies include the women who already had mental problems, which are mor elikely among women who get abortions as one of the criteria for allowing abortions is mental health problems. A Danish study looked at nearly 400, 000 women and found that whilst there was more mental illnes sint hose who had abortion there WAS NO INCREASE after the abortion. But amongst women who had the child the number having mental problems doubled after the pregnancy, showing that whilst abortion did not increase the number of mental problems pregnancy did. Depression is a known side effect of pregnancy and child birth.
Physically pregnancy and childbirth is far more likely to cause problems including death than abortion. britian has one of the worst maternal death rates in the western world, and many maternal physical illness due to pregnancy and childbirht, yet not one woman has died from a legal abortion in the UK in recent years. If Dorries cared about women she would bee trying to address the high maternal death rate in the UK.

I see your Daily Fail article and raise you this

Bumbley
Authored by Trine Munk-Olsen, in the New England journal of medicine, Jan 27 issue.
It is the largest study ever carried out. And also remember that depression is a known side effect of pregnancy.
And in the serious journalistic piece that was the dailymail article, the worst counselling was from independent counselling providers.

And adoption also has a long term impact on women's mental health. far more so than abortion.

Kelly, did you read the study I linked to? If so, can you link to something that has 'debunked' it?

According to the article, the best advice also came from an independent organisation - careconfiidential. Both Marie stopes and bpac also gave bad/biased advice.

"
And adoption also has a long term impact on women's mental health. far more so than abortion.
"
Do you have a link for that Josephine?

Kelly, if I've found the right study - trine munk-Olsen looked at 69 teenagers.

Also in relation to the Denmark study,

"Fifteen out of 1,000 women had a first-time psychiatric episode during the first year after having a first-trimester-induced abortion," Munk-Olsen said

"
Among women and girls who actually delivered a baby, about four in 1,000 had a first-time psychiatric episode before the baby and about seven afterward -- an increase possibly related to postpartum depression, the study authors said."

This doesn't support what you are saying.

I gave you the citation, look it up yourself. Surely you are capable of that. Once again Trine Munk-Olsen, New England Journal of medicine Jan 27 issue.
careconfidential the organisation that claims abortion is a sin that grieves God gives the best advice in your eyes. That says it all about your arguements!

Yes, I'm reading it now. The one I linked to is more recent and examines more women. Have you read it? Any thoughts?

Re care confidential - that wasn't the experience of the person in the article and that was what I was pointing out. It has nothing to do with my argument. Care to comment on the poor standard of counselling from Marie stopes and bpac?

'Do you have a link for that Josephine?'

You could start with these:

www.aapel.org/bdp/BLadoptionUS.html
bjsw.oxfordjournals.org/content/26/5/609.abstract
jama.ama-assn.org/content/293/20/2501.abstract
www.adoptionhealing.com/ginni.html
www.associatedcontent.com/article/257390/the_case_against_adoption_research.html?cat=17
vsn.org/trauma.html
www.amfor.net/acs/
www.everythingforadoption.com/Trauma-and-Adoption.asp

Not sure this Danish study can debunk it when it was published earlier so would you like to link to what you think has 'debunked' it?

Bumbley the news paper article you linked to was not the actual study, just a news article about it. But that study did not say abortion itself increased the risk, it said those wo had an abortion were more likely to have mental health problems than those that did not. This is because one of the reasons that the state allow women to have an abortion is because they have mental health problems. It shows how people like Dorries try to manipulate the facts to back up their own opinions.
The study I gave you the details of, compared the difference before and after abortion, or childbirth and found mental health problems were far more likely to increase after childbirth than compared with abortion.