To ask pro-choice MNers to email your MPs? <this is not a request to vote on anything>

[EricNorthmansMistressOfPotions]

There is an article here about the proposed amendments to the health and social care bill which will force women to undergo 'independent' counselling before being allowed to choose to terminate a pregnancy. The assumption is that BPAS and the like have a financial investment in encouraging women to terminate and as such their counselling is biased. The stated goal is to reduce the number of terminations per year by forcing women to delay between seeking and receiving termination, and having to undergo additional counselling (political bias unknown, though easily guessed at) prior to the termination. ND hopes that woman will change their minds during this enforced extended waiting period.

If you think this is a shit idea you can email your MP by clicking this link

This is not a request to vote on anything at all

Josephine the legal aspect vs the practical aspect was discussed earlier on the thread. While technically the law doesn't state 'abortion on demand' women do, in practice, get an abortion if they ask for one. (obviously if it's below 24 weeks)

The policies are not more definite because it is up to the doctor's judgement. If the doctor believes anything other than pallative care would be cruel, pointless, and do more harm than good then they will only give pallative care. It is not a lottery.

Bumbley, So you have heard of some stories and base your beliefs on that. Besides Dorries story was or appeard to be not so much that it was alive, but that it was killed. It is illegal in the UK to kill any living child even if it was born as a result of a botched abortion. As hester says marie stopes has to have care prepared for late term abortions in case the abortion does not work and it is born living. If anything the arguement here is for making access to abortion easier so it can be done in the early stages withoutany risk of it being born alive.

Abortion at 24 weeks is not allowed on demand. It is allowed up to 24 weeks if the foetus is deformed, and from 24 weeks if there is a serious risk to the mother.
i think part of the problem with anti-abortionists is that they seem to confuse induced abortions, and spontaneous abortions and use data relating to the latter when trying to make arguements and claims.

Hester, is the issue with believing Dorries' story because she was claiming that this happened while she was working at a charity rather than for the NHS then? Was the injection to the heart in practice 30/40 years ago?

Bumbley, How do you know that the law is being broken and abortion is available on demand up to 24 weeks, unless you are an abortionist or have received several abortions yourself on demand, you cannot know that. The law is the law, and anti-abrotionists have no business accusing those they disagree with of breaking it.

Kelly, sorry ut you are wrong. Abortion is allowed to 24 weeks, regardless of the health of the foetus and to term for medical issues.

You won't convince her. She wants to believe that women just stroll in to their doctor's surgery at 23 weeks to say they can't be bothered being pregnant anymore and that nobody cares if the baby is then born alive and left to die alone.

She actually wants that to be the truth.

As I said earlier, and as A1980 (I think) explained earlier on the thread, it is not explicitly stated that it is 'on demand' but, in practice, women will get one if they ask for one. It was discussed over a few pages earlier in the thread if you want to read it.

Bumbley,
If you believe Dorries you also have to believe she was involved in the disposal of a living child which was illegal as that is what her story seems to be claiming, so either she is lying or should be explaining herself to the police. Either way she should be expelled from the Tory party.
And yes the injection to the heart was used in the 1970's, and yes even back then late abortion (which this must have been if Dorries is not lying) was only carried out in extreme cases i.e the mother's health was at risk. And if she is so worried about late abortions why not make access to early abortions easier rather than harder.

I don't know where she says she was working, bumbley, and I don't know at what stage the injection started. I worked in abortion in the late 80s/early 90s and it was done then, but she may be talking ten years before and I simply don't know what the procedure was in the late 70s.

I'm not saying she is defnitely lying - I don't know if she is or not. And I'm certainly not going to say that there are no failed terminations, or panicky staff making bad decisions - I've worked in healthcare too long to romanticise it, and some awful things do happen.

But abortion has changed a lot in 30 years, and I don't think it's fair of her to bring up old anecdotes in preference to researched evidence on current practice. I'm inclined to think she's lying because - well, she's rather flamboyant and not too interested in careful detail, is she? She seems to rather enjoy anecdote-based policy-making and be bored by anything as dull as a fact or a complicating factor. And it all sounds so Daily Mail...

My best bet is that when she was nursing she heard stories from other nurses, and has kind of co-opted some chinese whispers into her repertoire. It annoys me because the issue of how the NHS treats babies born on the cusp of viability is very, very complex and sensitive, and ill served by her ramblings.

Having supported over 100 women through the process, I can categorically state that there is no such thing in the UK as abortion on demand.

It is simply not true that is so 'in practice' as you claim. It is true that not every woman seeking a termination will face barriers caused by the requirements but many do (which is a significant cause of later term abortions) and the very existence of the requirements means that UK women do not have abortion on demand.

She actually wants that to be the truth.

I agree, michelle. It's horrific. What a strange, strange person she is.

Bumbley,
You do know that just because you write on the thread such and such happens, and then later on say it was discussed earlier, that does not count as an actual source for the claims you are making. It is illegal to carry out an abortion on demand at 24 weeks. making wild claims you can only back up with your earlier claims that actually you know people are acting illegally, does not mean your claims are true. Unless you are an abortionist, or a woman who has multiple on demand abortions you cannot know that the law is being broken. It is the same with Dorries claims that the abortion charities are acting for profit, she can come up with no evidence other than her own claims.

I haven't said I believe dorries actually - I don't know much about her. I just pointed out that it could be true because it has happened - even more recently than when she was saying it did ( presumably standards/controls would improve over time)

Have to go but I'll be back later.

Can i also point out that in the UK only 2% of abortions are carried out after 20 weeks, and over 90% are carried out before 13 weeks. And as serious abnormalities can often only be seen at 20 weeks, the scare moungering that women are having late abortions for the sake of it is pathetic.

Bumbley,
You are saying you know of cases in the UK where nurses have killed babies that survived abortion, despite the fact that only 2% of abortions are carried out past 20 weeks. And I am surprised that if you support Dorries you would believe her story.

Josephine - I can assure you that it is possible to pay £400 or whatever the going rate is now to rock up at Marie Stopes and within a matter of days terminate your pregnancy ON DEMAND. Two doctors signed off on my papers but I saw no evidence of any consultation on my needs or condition and for a fact neither said one word to me.

"You are saying you know of cases in the UK where nurses have killed babies that survived abortion, despite the fact that only 2% of abortions are carried out past 20 weeks. And I am surprised that if you support Dorries you would believe her story."

Eh? Where have I said that? I said there are cases where aborted babies are born alive - which there are. (see linked times article) I also said that babies don't tend to be resuscitated before 22 weeks (any babies) although it would seem that it some hospitals it is 24 weeks.

Also, for the record, I do not 'support' dorries. I had no idea who she was until this thread started. I just don't think her counselling idea is a bad one provided it is genuinely impartial. I can see how the proposed legislation's wording does not specify what the provision will be so I think that would need to be changed. I just think it's a bit of a jump to immediately assume that the government would only allow pro-life organisations to provide counselling when they talk about counselling being independent of abortion providers.

Btw - saying that babies are not resuscitated is not the sane as saying they are 'killed'.

With the greatest respect goodnightmoon, a termination at 23 weeks costs thousands of pounds. It would still require two doctors signatures which if you wanted fast would mean seeing two doctors privately. Then the space would need to be available in the clinic, which is very limited as it requires at least one overnight stay and there is already a long waiting list for nhs patients.

The reason that pro-lifers desperately need to believe in the myth of the heartless, psychopathic woman getting carelessly pregnant, leaving the fetus to develop to 25 weeks and then marching into abortion clinics to have it callously disposed of, is so that they can then use that caricature to justify the removal of rights over their own bodies to real women.

Bumbley,
Dorries claims the baby was alive and she was told to destroy it. You claimed this could be true as you have heard of similar things happening i.e nurses killing babies born alive after botched abortions. It is not and has never been legal to actively destroy (i.e kill) a baby born alive after a botched aborton which is why abortion clinics must have incubators etc in place for late abortions.

And no not resucitating is not the same as killing, that was the point I was making. Dorries did not say she was told not to resuciatate it, she claims she was told to destroy it.

But breaktime, that's just as much of a caricature as the one you present.

I know some pro-lifers and they don't all have hooves and horns. They don't see themselves as cackling nutters trying to deprive women of power over their own bodies, but as defenders of the fetus/baby, which as they see it lacks a voice... and it just is the case that there is a conflict of interest between said being and the rights of the woman.

Breaktime, she wouldn't be able to get one at 25 weeks unless there was a foetal abnormality. In any case, I haven't seen a single pro-lifer bring up the type of person you are describing. Personally, I think pro-choice people like to believe that pro-lifers believe in those type of caricatures so they can justify being rude and dismissive of their opinions.

typo! 23 weeks of course.

you're trying to tell me that Dorries doesn't believe that sort of thing? (or want to believe it)?

The other option seems to be the 'poor feckless girl very probably doomed to a lifetime of misery and regret' stereotype which is the one you seem more fond of, as far as I can tell.

Thanks for posting this!