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To ask pro-choice MNers to email your MPs? <this is not a request to vote on anything>

1001 replies

EricNorthmansMistressOfPotions · 29/08/2011 14:55

There is an article here about the proposed amendments to the health and social care bill which will force women to undergo 'independent' counselling before being allowed to choose to terminate a pregnancy. The assumption is that BPAS and the like have a financial investment in encouraging women to terminate and as such their counselling is biased. The stated goal is to reduce the number of terminations per year by forcing women to delay between seeking and receiving termination, and having to undergo additional counselling (political bias unknown, though easily guessed at) prior to the termination. ND hopes that woman will change their minds during this enforced extended waiting period.

If you think this is a shit idea you can email your MP by clicking this link

This is not a request to vote on anything at all

OP posts:
Conchita · 30/08/2011 22:03

In political terms the real problem is that successive governments from left and right have, since at least the 1990s, become fixated with an inane, tabloid-pleasing populism which reduces emotive and complex issues such as this one to 'little innocent babies versus heartless, feckless women'. In this respect I do think that the current government are as bad or worse as any of their predecessors, with Cameron's tedious 'It's the right thing to do, it's the fair thing to do' PR man schtick and tendency to vacillate in the wind of public opinion really getting on my nerves. Although I've never been a fan of the Tories I had hoped and wished for better than this.

breaktime73 · 30/08/2011 22:04

oh and as for 'actually know some Conservative voters' I was partner to a commercial barrister for 7 years, went to Oxford and used to work in the City. You meet quite a few that way. Most of them don't think like you seem to. Your sneering tone is, however, familiar.

smallwhitecat · 30/08/2011 22:05

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smallwhitecat · 30/08/2011 22:07

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TrillianAstra · 30/08/2011 22:11

My MP retweeted this today:

Abortion Rights: Lies, Damned Lies, and Stats brightgreenscotland.org/index.php/2011/08/abortion-rights-lies-damned-lies-and-statistics/ Tweet your MP & get them on the same side as mine...(@julianhuppert).

so I think I am good.
(I replied and said I was pleased)

breaktime73 · 30/08/2011 22:12

hehe yeah you would be a barrister....the fulminating, superior tone as I said is so very, very familiar to me....I was married to one for some time and thankfully am no more. Anyway just as bored with the political ranting now as you are.

This is what we ought to be focusing on. Dorries et al are taking us the way of the USA where (pretty much overwhelmingly rightwing Republican, but hey that's irrelevant anyway ;)) all mandate various intrusive forms of 'counselling' with 24 hour compulsory waiting periods, lecturing on the 'pain' felt by the fetus and (e.g. in Texas) sometimes compulsory ultrasounds so that the unfortunate woman may experience the 'personhood' of her baby. Take a look at this and feel afraid www.guttmacher.org/statecenter/spibs/spib_MWPA.pdf

Empusa · 30/08/2011 22:13

trillian That's excellent!

MinnieBar · 30/08/2011 22:16

Done, and posted to FB.

I am a youth counsellor being made redundant this month. Maybe I could apply for one of these counselling posts and try and redress the balance a bit? Wink

breaktime73 · 30/08/2011 22:19

AryaStark we have NEVER had unconditional access to the right to choose. The 'two doctors' rule was always in place to ensure that in the end medical authority would decide in the end whether the woman deserved an abortion. As we know, in practice abortion has basically taken place on demand in recent decades. however, there have been disturbing stories of women told to basically f* off by their GPs when they asked for abortion.

In fact when I had one in 1996 I was initially told that I might have to go private by a young male GP. I knew at the time that basically I had to prove potential physical or mental harm to 'qualify' and I told him immediately that I knew damn well that I couldnt' afford a private abortion and that if I had to have this baby it would be a disaster for me. He sort of flinched and made the referral. But I felt pretty scared at that moment, that some uninterested bloke could have that power over my body.

breaktime73 · 30/08/2011 22:20

Minnie unless you're a member of SPUC I don't think your qualifications will fit....

smallwhitecat · 30/08/2011 22:21

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breaktime73 · 30/08/2011 22:24

My ex partner did indeed vote labour, smallwhitecat :D He was (gulp) a committed Blairite. Can there be much worse than that?? anyway, bored now, as stated above.

breaktime73 · 30/08/2011 22:28

hmm have to say though in response to Conchita- is there actual evidence of this being 'superficially attractive' as a political move? Really?? I think that rather it has been sneaked in behind the (spectacularly unattractive) NHS 'reforms'. They don't seem to be looking for much popularity with this one. I think it's a behind-the-back attempt to introduce US republican-style 'disincentives' to abortion. If Cameron wanted to really woo the pro-life audience he'd actually be reducing the time limit (I suspect he's not trying that one as he suspects that atm he'd lose the vote? Not sure).

woollyideas · 30/08/2011 22:34

On Newsnight, BBC2 NOW!

MyGoldfishIsEvil · 30/08/2011 22:34

BBC2's Newsnight are discussing this now.

smallwhitecat · 30/08/2011 22:35

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AryaStark · 30/08/2011 22:37

Thank you breaktime73.

breaktime73 · 30/08/2011 22:40

The government have already 'caved in': www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/aug/28/anti-abortion-lobby-reforms

richpersoninapoorpersonsbody · 30/08/2011 22:44

Thank you I have e-mailed my mp and look forward to her response - she is the lovely (not) lady herself!!

LineRunner · 30/08/2011 22:48

I just don't want it to be a quick abortion for private payers; a later one for women reliant on the NHS.

breaktime73 · 30/08/2011 22:56

LineRunner I expect that is exactly where it will end up. A two-tier system.

breaktime73 · 30/08/2011 22:56

LOL rich- good luck with that one ;)

michelleseashell · 30/08/2011 22:57

The interviewer on Newsnight didn't seem too impressed with him. I'm not either. Constantly interrupting. Wouldn't answer straightforward questions.

I was already forced to wait a distressing amount of time. How many more stumbling blocks do they want to put in the way? It seems to me they're happy to increase the number of late term abortions in order to guilt more women into continuing an unwanted pregnancy. What a horrific gamble and a terrible sacrifice!

hester · 30/08/2011 22:58

I wrote a looooong post earlier today and it seems to have been eaten by the ether, so I'll try to do less of a monologue this time!

I worked for BPAS for many years, back in the day when ALL clients received counselling from highly trained counsellors who prided themselves on operating independently. It was a matter of professional pride to them that they helped a number of women choose not to have abortion, and to tackle the issues in their lives that were leading them in that direction. These counsellors were a fantastic bunch of women, for sure.

BUT it was undeniable that most of our clients didn't actually need the counselling, or want it. They knew what they wanted, and they were so focused on getting it and moving beyond it that they found counselling a distraction at best. Counselling did delay the process and it also had to be paid for by all clients (in those days there wasn't much NHS funding, and no external funders - all costs had to be covered by the women themselves). The vast majority of our clients were young women who had had to scrabble around desperately to get the money together for their abortion. A good number had had to travel from Ireland in conditions of great secrecy, paying for transport and hotels as well as clinic fees.

When first Marie Stopes and then BPAS decided to make counselling optional I was rather taken aback, but actually couldn't argue it. Undoubtedly a small number of women would lose out because they would lack confidence/insight to ask for counselling, and also lacked sufficient support from family and friends. But they were a very small minority, and it was untenable to force the majority to undergo (and pay for) counselling just to ensure we caught everyone. At some stage you have to treat women as adults, after all.

Three other things I wanted to say.

One is the impact of delays. We already make women get permission from TWO doctors before obtaining abortion - this costs and also creates delays. When I had an NHS abortion, age 16, I had to wait SIX WEEKS to see the second doctor, creating considerable extra anxiety and trauma.

I also had a pretty horrible experience at the hands of those doctors. When I worked at BPAS I was genuinely impressed at how much nicer and more caring the staff there were. People often don't realise how low-status, almost taboo, it is for a doctor or nurse to choose to work in abortion services. Most who do so are deeply committed to women's reproductive freedom, and I hate hearing them discussed as though they're just after the money.

I'm not saying every BPAS (or Stopes) abortion is a good experience. I didn't hear that radio programme, but I have heard many, many women who describe the experience as being on a conveyor belt. The lack of congruence between the emotional experience and the clinical experience is vast, and distressing to lots of women. There's no easy answer to this. Abortion IS a very quick and straightforward procedure in the vast majority of cases; it is more clinically sound and cost-effective to provide it in dedicated slots - so you get a couple of dozen women queueing up for the procedure, and that does feel sausage factoryish. If we want NHS money to be used to make the experience a bit more humane we could of course do that - but do we?

Sorry, it's ended up being another long post after all. Just one last point to finish on: Life and Care and whatnot are already providing independent pre- and post-abortion counselling. They have done for at least 30 years. It's very widely marketed, at least in London where they often advertise on tube escalators and free magazines. So why don't more women use them? Surely if women were crying out for these services, they would be using them already?

BeyondTheLimitsOfAcceptability · 30/08/2011 23:02

michelle I have a close friend who is waiting for an abortion at the moment, her doctor refused to refer her so she had to see another (dont get me started on that!), she had to wait a week for her first appointment (its tomorrow, and 30 miles away!) and cant book the second appointment (at a different hospital) until after the first one! Its nonsense how long it takes, especially as the easier its done, the less it affects the woman and the cheaper it is for the NHS!!
To make the process even longer is just ridiculous Angry

Have signed petition and emailed MP.

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