Apparently laws need to be changed to enable parents to discipline their DCs effectively

[BertieBotts]

Just heard on the news on the radio. What the fuck? As far as I'm aware, the only "discipline" method which is actually illegal is beating your children (quite rightly). So what exactly are they saying needs to change? I don't get it!

ragged, I thought it was a father who had slapped his DD for doing something to the neighbours, either trying to break in or disturbing the peace or something - she called the police on him, SS were involved and he was unable to continue in his role as football coach for the local youth team (or something like that). She was apparently sorry that she had reacted like that afterwards but it was too late - her dad was unable to do anything about it.
Of course it could be another case.

I agree that it is about time more authority was given back to those nominally in authority. I do not think that this means that authority figures should never be questioned (as some of them are still capable of Pocket-Hitler tendencies) but in general children should be taught respect (without them shouting about their own "rights") and realise that their actions have consequences.

Teachers should be able to give out punishments. Children should have to accept them. PArents should not try and get them overturned UNLESS they are seriously unreasonable. Parents should not go against the teachers or other authority figures - if a policeperson tells off a child or has to take it home to its parents, its parents should back up the policeperson, not give them a load of verbal and warn them off ever touching their kid again.

Seems there are a lot of people who don't have any respect for anyone or anything else now, it's sad. :(

Fuchzia sadly this happens a lot with certain children they are also very well versed in their rights in relation to the police

But the worse this is the ss actually here this stupidness out

When they should be backing the parents

Happened to a lady down the road sadly she clipped dd round the ear for being two hours late home she was charged with assault lost her job and had to put her home on the Market she is now barred from Woking with children

What is the law on smacking your kids today? Mine are all grown up now but got a smack on the backside/back of the legs when deserved and after I'd counted to 3!

Can you still, in a public place, physically chastise a grizzling toddler who having been told they can't have [insert item of choice here] still thinks that snivelling and whingeing will get that decision changed?

Or an old friend's 14yo DS who dislocated her jaw with a punch because his mum grounded him for terrorising frail, elderly neighbours (an incident in another estate close to where I live). This is a mother who, along with the father (who was away working abroad for 2 weeks), knew her DS understood the word NO as a toddler and laid down the firm but fair boundries from then on and the DS respected it.

The DS also went for me but I got him in the arm-up-back hold and told him if HE moved HE'D break his own arm. His mum was so fed up with being beaten that she rang the police, pressed charges against him and he eventually went to a juvie centre. Her DS was let out and begged forgivness, but when he didn't get it he went ballistic and trashed his parent's home.

My friend and her DH are still together so a split or lack of boundries can't be to blame, nor can lack of listening to him because they were all ears if he had a problem and tried to help him with his agreement.

So it just goes to show that even laying down the boundries and being a bloody good parent doesn't stop some DC from being violent.

JohannaM - it is my understanding that you can be reported if you are seen laying a hand on your child in public but I don't know whether it would be followed up or not. It is apparently illegal to physically chastise a child to the point where it leaves a mark (which is fine, I think! cuts out all beating/bashing/thumping etc). But even a slap, if reported by the child in question, could cause problems for the parent.

HeyYouJimmy - that's horrifying for your poor friend. :( Can't help wondering if he has other things going on (drugs, maybe?). But there doesn't need to be anything - some children just go their own road and the hormones of teenagers can make a real mess of the nicest children. :(

DogStrummer Tue 16-Aug-11 23:40:53
"Parents already have sufficient rights to discipline their children as far as I'm aware. What they are not able to do I think, is transfer those rights to another party (Childminder, Grandparents, for example). That should change.

"Of course teachers should be answerable to some higher power, which parents can complain to, if they feel their DC have been treated unfairly"

No they shouldn't. They can home-school their kids if they take such offense at what a teacher does. Time we as parents started giving teachers unconditional support. It's a first step towards sorting all this mess out"

Really? So when my (perfectly well behaved) disabled daughter was forced to slide out of her wheelchair to crawl into the loo because school were too lazy to let her use the disabled loo, I should have given up my job to home school rather than criticise the school? Would you have been happy to pay my benefits?

Have just seen in the papers that a local (Swedish) school is in serious trouble for teachers regularly humiliating female pupils and giving them lower marks: should all the parents of girls in that area have been forced to home school because you mustn't criticise teachers?

I don't believe anyone, whether pupil or parent or teacher, should have unconditional support to do anything they like.

What I do believe in is effective management and clearly thought-out policies on behaviour, discipline, sanctions etc.

In fact, what is already in place in dd's excellent secondary school. Very little trouble there, not because it is a posh area, but because the school is well managed and the pupils get used to a certain level of expectation: anyone misbehaving stands out. Have been particularly impressed by swift and effective implementation of bullying policy- it sends a clear message to the pupils, and indirectly gives them to understand that if teachers have the power to stop them behaving badly towards each other, they are not likely to take any crap themselves either.

Not saying that school management are always to blame: of course there are parents from hell.

Thumbwitch - thanks for that - all sounds rather namby pamby PC nonsense to me - any slap is bound to leave a slight mark albeit for a minute or so - so that, effectively, rules out any form of physical chastisement.

HeyYouJimmy - agree with TW -awful situation - it sounds as if it might have been drug abuse or mental illness.

Johanna - yes, I think that was the idea, to rule it all out without actually instigating a full-on ban.

Laws don't need to be changed. However, 'laws' are not affecting parenting. What is affecting the way parents think is OK or not OK to behave are the many books, magazine articles and TV programmes, all distilling down into the cod psychology & peer-pressure which says it's not OK to do the following....

• describe a child as 'naughty'
• use punishment of any kind as a deterrent. (Or use the word 'punishment')
• raise your voice
• lose your temper
• pull rank
• discipline someone else's child
• allow anyone else to discipline your child
• use the word 'discipline'
• upset your child in any way
• etc.

Corporal punishment hasn't been acceptable for a long time. However, the things above are routinely put forward, quite seriously, and some people find this leaves them feeling powerless.... or guilty if they transgress.

Feck me, I'm in trouble then Cogito!
I do all of those! But then so do most of the mums I know and at our playgroup it is standard procedure to "group parent" - so if one child is misbehaving and his/her mum hasn't noticed, then it's fine to tell them to stop, even shout at them if what they're doing is dangerous/violent.
Is that just because I'm in Australia? Are there any playgroups in the UK that allow that sort of "group parenting" any more?

Actually, I do try to tell DS that what he has done is naughty, rather than calling him naughty but sometimes I get it wrong.

Thumbwitch... just stick around MN for a while and see what angst results from someone wondering whether or not they should tell their friend's DC off for going at the sofa with a pair of scissors.... or the apoplexy because someone (including teachers on occasions) had the gall to tell their destructive little horror off for 'just being a kid ffs'.

And that 'naughty' nuance is totally lost on a lot of people... same as the concepts of 'punishment' or 'discipline'. Again on MN I've read things like 'I never punish my children and think people who insist on discipline are appalling parents'.... Or someone says 'I tell children they are being very naughty for getting out of bed all night long' and gets a royal flaming for harming their self-esteem or something. So other people end up standing back, rather confused, knowing that the terrible behaviour in front of them is wrong but worried that if they do or say anything at all they'll be verbally slapped down, judged as a bad parent or the SS will pitch up at the front door to take their children away. And they're the caring ones that could do a great job if they had a bit more confidence. The ones that don't care, don't worry about laws, never mind what other people think.

Again... not 'laws' that need to change. Fashionable ideas of 'good parenting' propagated by TV progs & books that peddle cod child psychology for entertainment purposes... far more influential.

Cogito, I have been here 3y - I have seen some of the mad situations that crop up, where people get given the evil eye for daring to tell off their little Tarquin when he's beating the OP's Jemima over the head with a Tonka truck - I know the theory but am soooo glad I never saw it in practice as we left the UK 2y ago!

Thumbwitch - you're lucky - looks like Australia has (so far) avoided the PC brigade of Public Opinion on these matters. However, like so much nonsense that is spouted about kids generally (from rearing to educating) it seems that, once more, we must thank the psychobabble that flows from the influential screwballs who parade as educators and cod psychologists in the dear old US of A.

Johanna - don't you bet on it - Australia tends to follow the USA quite closely as well! I don't know whether it's different in the cities, probably is, but I'm out in the "sticks" and people just seem to do things the way they always have. I reckon in another 5 years, it will be the same here as it is elsewhere.

Bertieboots, when I lived in London, about 15 years ago, my next door neighbour, a single mum working two jobs to allow herself and her 11 yo girl decently, came back one day after a long day at work to find her at home with 3 older boys between the age of 14 and 15 . She asked the boys to live and to never come back. Her daughter called SS on her and they came to her house to tell her that she was not allowed to stop her daughter to have friends and should her Dd complain again about the same matter she(mum) would be in trouble. Now, that is the kind of thing I suppose should change. I am not saying that people should stop their Dcs to have friends at all but parents should be allowed some controle on their dcs frequentation because it IS important.

Agree with Cory I think it would be a very bad idea to have a situation where teachers are not accountable to anyone and there is no complaint mechanism.

Teachers do sometimes behave in ways that they shouldn't - sometimes ways which are illegal - and there needs to be a mechanism to deal with that when it happens.

I think Cogito covered it all and I've seen all the stuff she is describing being put forward on here.

Sometimes I console myself by saying that "it's only a handful of posters on a forum called mumsnet" and that everywhere else people do the things they always did.

That's mostly true I think, but seeing the way the new generations of adults behave out in the world I'm worried that it has spread.

Another one here who agrees with Cory. Though not as extreme as her daughter's experiences, I too have a child who suffered degradation and humiliation at the hands of teachers who treated him appallingly.

Some teachers are brutal and don't actually seem to like children at all. Why some chose to spend a career working with them beggars belief. Experiences like Cory's and mine may be rare, but they do highlight that teachers can and do get it wrong when it comes to discipline and general day to day management of the children in their care and that should be enough to demonstrate that free rein is not appropriate and there are instances when their disciplinary choices should not be supported, by parents or anyone else.

Yes, I agree that there are crap parents and some dreadfully behaved children, but that also applies to some teachers too. Putting them all on a pedestal and claiming that they always know best is a huge mistake.