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Didn't the Guardian Run Wikileaks?

85 replies

Swedes2 · 13/07/2011 19:15

Wikileaks were obtained by hacking, which is illegal.

OP posts:
sprogger · 14/07/2011 10:37

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BornSicky · 14/07/2011 13:04

For the last time; Wikileaks do not hack and are not hackers. The Guardian are (at least) third-hand recipients of this data, all of which is in the public domain.

On the phone hacking:

The Guardian are NOT making this a party political issue; in fact I've seen more accord between them and The Telegraph and the BBC on this than any other issue, including MPs expenses.

The House of Commons are also not playing this as a party political issue. I'd have thought that was clear from the insistence in the House of Commons debates and PMQs from the last week. All parties have been quite clear that they are all culpable to a greater or lesser extent (about the relationship between politicians and the media) and the only way to deal with this effectively is to find a cross-party solution.

The Guardian have not only reported that, but have commented on it. Everyday the Guardian live blog links to and presents information from other news sources. If they were so partisan, do you really think any of this would be happening?

Alan Rusbridger was not the only one to warn Cameron. So did the Lib Dems and other people. Please go and read Hansard if you want evidence of this.

The reason they all warned Cameron was because they knew that Coulson was involved in or had direct knowledge of illegal activities connected to his time at News International. That makes it very important to any future employer, Prime Minister or not.

"This story itself has been hijacked, for the convenience of the transgressors. The important story is not slimeball hacks and bent rozzers. Nor is it about Milly Dowler and a little boy with Cystic Fibrosis. This is about the way in which our politicians have bought public opinion through a lazy and no longer independent media (not just NI). If Murdoch built his empire on dirty deals with our politicians, that tells us as much about our politicians as it does about Murdoch."

The above is all nonsense. You say that it's been hijacked, but then go on to damn Murdoch and politicians. You say it's not about "bent rozzers" and "slimeball hacks", but it is. These are the people that have skewed public opinion through their activities for themselves, their masters and the politicians they favour.

However, the cross-party judicial enquiry that has been launched is going to cover all of these aspects: political, legal and media and the inter-relationships between all three to ascertain if they were proper and if not, how to address it so it can't happen again and to bring charges against those found to have broken the law.

Furthermore, the CUlture, Media and Sport Select Committee has representatives from all three of the major parties sitting and hearing evidence.

How much more does the OP want, or did she not read/listen to the news and political debates of the last week?

And finally, I think all parties have agreed, (in fact I know they have because I listened to the debate in the Commons yesterday) that there will be significantly more transparency about the relations between the media and politicians and the police. The terms have yet to be agreed, but there is an end to private, covert meetings.

However, Cameron said yesterday at the same discussion that he thought that it would be unreasonable for people to be told who they could and couldn't be friends with and that there had to be limits to the informaiton that should be in the public domain.

I agree with sprogger's conclusion to your posts swedes*: "
I'm afraid that your OP is so uninformed and partisan it completely undermines your subsequent posts, Swedes. "

AitchTwoOh · 14/07/2011 21:07

i know that other people warned him, i have no problem with elected representatives warning him... i was referring to animula's excellent post, as i said, and i do think that there will have been a motive other than just general loveliness for editors of left-leaning newspapers to have been warning him. it's a bit daft to think otherwise, imo. fair enough, do a guy a favour and there will be an interview with the PM in it some point further down the line. that is actually how things work... or used to... and that is imo why he would have done it. standard practice.

BornSicky · 14/07/2011 21:19

agreed Aitch

Of course there's something in it for the Guardian: increased readership, increased credibility - that's for generally running the stories.

For Rusbridger and the PM aspect, I agree it was probably with those intentions, but in tandem with a desire to ensure that a crook of that sclae didn't end up running media operations for the government.

And finally, and importantly, for the good of journalism.

LucaBrasi · 14/07/2011 21:30

The Guardian supported the Lib Dems in the last election. Not Labour

edam · 14/07/2011 22:57

Yup, the Guardian supported the Lib Dems, so Rusbridger was advising a member of the coalition government his paper kind of supported.

But the traffic accident analogy is valid. On a much more minor scale, but I tipped off someone who was about to employ a dodgy character in my own far less powerful sector of journalism. I had no reason to do the potential employer a favour, just thought they ought to have fair warning. (Sadly they went ahead anyway - bad call, brought the whole organisation down in the end.)

AitchTwoOh · 14/07/2011 23:04

but Coulson was employed by Cameron long before there was a coalition, surely? so that's irrelevant, i think.

teejwood · 14/07/2011 23:09

Aitch maybe Rusbridger also had the foresight to see how this might pan out. Maybe he didn't want the UK to look like a bunch of clueless corrupt t*ts - which is kind of how we are looking to the world right now. Do we really have the authority to tell other governments what to do, when our own is being dictated to - and has been for some time?
I also wonder - at what point might all this make the UK a less attractive proposition for global investors?

AitchTwoOh · 14/07/2011 23:12

look, i'm not slagging off Rusbridger but i just don't buy this idea that he is wunnerful and Only Thinking Of His Country. that really isn't how things work.

teejwood · 14/07/2011 23:14

Aitch i'm not saying the Guardian wouldn't benefit in any way, but having a healthy UK is good for UK companies - and the Guardian is part of a UK company.

AitchTwoOh · 14/07/2011 23:15

isn't the guardian a charitable foundation or somesuch?

teejwood · 14/07/2011 23:30

Guardian - as far as i am aware - is owned by a charitable trust. but it just means that GMG reinvests its profits in the group rather than returning them to shareholders; it still needs to generate revenue/try and make a profit like any other business tho!

AitchTwoOh · 14/07/2011 23:36

so does it turn a profit? the indy never has. just as well their oligarch is a diffident sort of a chap. Wink

ImperialBlether · 14/07/2011 23:39

It was The Telegraph, wasn't it? I remember being surprised it was them.

BornSicky · 15/07/2011 04:43

Guardian hasn't turned a profit in years.

As for timings, the reed/morgan trial (and later collapse also took place over time. It was this, not phone hacking, that rusbridger advised about. He wrote an editorial to this effect last week.

edam · 15/07/2011 23:37

I think it would have been more surprising had Rusbridger (and lots of other people) not warned Cameron. It's not about being holier-than-thou, it's about pointing out pretty troubling connections that Cameron didn't seem to know about.

AitchTwoOh · 15/07/2011 23:52

gah. i think people are missing my point. all this cosying up between press and politicians is being done by all sections of the press, is all. rusbridger warning cameron is still evidence of cosiness. if there were clear demarcations then no, he shouldn't have been warning him of anything. he's not his pal, he's supposed to be reporting events, not influencing them.

AitchTwoOh · 15/07/2011 23:54

after all, i think we can probably speculate quite successfully that there were forces at NI saying that him taking on Coulson would be a Good Thing. (which to be fair it would have been had his 'assurances' been worth anything and had Nick Davies thrown in the towel).

edam · 16/07/2011 10:37

I really don't think it was about being cosy, it was about not wanting someone seriously dodgy at the heart of government. At least making the PM think about the effect of employing someone who had encouraged criminal behaviour and actually employed hardened violent criminals.

AitchTwoOh · 16/07/2011 12:07

well we neither of us have any proof of whether it was cosy or honourable, edam. however i think we both know that had Cameron taken the advice and dodged the Coulson bullet, there would have been the expectation of a quid pro quo down the line.

AitchTwoOh · 16/07/2011 12:07

cosy or honourable or both i should say.

edam · 17/07/2011 10:04

The only quid pro quo would have been an interview. And what's wrong with the Guardian having an interview with the PM?

AitchTwoOh · 17/07/2011 10:08

unless you are rusbridger himself, edam, i very much doubt that you are in a position to declare what the 'only' quid pro quo might be.

edam · 17/07/2011 10:19

oh aitch, I normally like you but you are oddly grouchy about this. Why are you so determined to turn it into some kind of conspiracy? It's completely normal to warn someone against employing someone who is dangerous. Nothing dodgy or improper about it at all. Lots of other people warned Cameron too.

There are plenty of other dodgy elements to this story, especially the Met holding meetings with the Guardian trying to persuade them that their stories were exaggerated.

I know the argument about the proper relationship between journalist and politician being dog and lamppost but seriously, this was not corrupt or bad practice, it was entirely sensible and correct.

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