Teachers to strike - 30 June

[meditrina]

breaking now on SKY

Overwhelming vote by 2 teachers' unions (92%)

We cannot afford a mortgage. Following my sense of vocation has always been more important to me than having a house of my own or any other material possessions. Maybe I am becoming more selfish in my own age.

OMG VictorGollancz at last someone whose singing from my song sheet. Well said. That's it in a nutshell. We should all be rallying against the govt, I'm so often gobsmacked that we Brits all moan but at the end of the day accept whatever measly scraps of concession they throw us. We need to look towards our Greek and Spanish cousins, where is the fighting spirit?

who is

I am starting to resent the fact that I work the hours I do to be universally loathed by the public...

I certainly don't loathe teachers. I have the greatest of respect for them. But that doesn't mean I automatically think therefore that we should continue to fund a pension system which clearly is unaffordable to show my "respect".

Please don't take the fact that myself and many others believe that your pension system is unaffordable to think that we loathe you. One does not necessarily follow the other.

Why couldn't teachers boycott SATs

Er....we did. And plan to again, if the outcome of the review next month means more of exactly the same kind of SATs.

We only stood down from the boycott this year because the government promised to review them - so that's why we aren't boycotting them atm.

As I said before I did not think you were teacher bashing.

You just have to look at MN over the past few days to see that a sizeable propertion of the general public think teachers are uneducated, thick, skiving and lacking in any aspiration for them selves or others. I was listening to the radio the other morning and heard much the same. I was speaking to a parent today who ranted down the phone at me for striking and being willing to hold the coutry to ransome for a few extra quid. My partner came home and told me that some friends had said something similar. The other day I was walking my dog and someone saw fit to have a got at me for being striking scum.

My brother and SIL both work in the private sector. Neither has ever earned enough to pay into a pension scheme. My brother has been made redundant twice and now gets up at 4am to start a heavy manual job which he is grateful to have.

DS and myself both in private sector, work long hours in stressful jobs and expect miserably small pensions. He has also been made redundant in the past.

Because I dare to question a continuing right to pay and conditions completely out of kilter with what the private sector now has, does not mean I loathe teachers.........

hulababy - I did say IME - where I live, it's widely reported that we don't have enough school places, so I can't imagine they'll be cutting teachers round here. Furthermore the teachers in my family haven't been alerted to job cuts in their schools. But I accept that clearly isn't the case in other parts of the country, given the references to teacher redundancies in this thread. I can also appreciate that when teachers leave, posts may not be filled and TA and support staff positions are likely to be hit, increasing a teachers workload.

twinklypearls - it's horrible that you've been treated that way. I think teachers are extremely significant members of society - we give them a lot of responsibility and expect a lot from them. But that can be said of a lot of public sector workers.

Unless you've done the job (I have) you don't know how tough it can be. But lots of jobs are really tough, have lower wages than teachers and are being threatened by cuts/changes to T&C. It's shit but the country is in such a financial mess, you can't exclude one specific group from unpleasant and unwelcome changes and let everyone else take the fall. I'd have nothing but sympathy and support for teachers if they were being singled out with pay freezes, longer working, higher pension contributions, job cuts etc. But they're not - we're all being affected one way or another.

To be fair teachers are being hit by all the above and getting a slating for doing so.

I think it is only appropriate that those working in the caring professions, including teaching, should be adequately paid. The teaching salary is not astronomical or even generous if you take into account the qualifications and training necessary to be a successful teacher and compare these qualifications/hours/training with those of other graduates in other professions and the salaries of both.

I certainly couldn't do the job, and admire those who do. As a 'professional' in a different public sector/local government field, I think my earnings were similar to or more than those of teachers qualified for a good few years. I'd be hard pushed to make the argument that my job had more importance or value than teaching, nursing, policing or any other of the core public sector fields in terms of their contribution to society.

It seems to me that by saying that some people are struggling in the private sector, people are suggesting that we should target people in the public sector so that they suffer in the same way. Which is ridiculous in my opinion as it fails to take into account the qualifications of teachers/nurses and others and the fundamental role they pay to society and social wellbeing.

INcidentally, I could have earned 3x my salary if I had worked in private sector of my profession rather than public sector. I chose not to do this because I was more interested in job security and future pension prospects. What will happen if the teaching pension is fiddled with is that quality graduates who might have been inspired to teach will not be able to afford to. Which will make us all the poorer.

I'm right there with you, gagarama. And I'm very suspicious of those who say that pension schemes are 'clearly' unaffordable, because frankly, that's a matter of opinion. Every cut this government has made has been subject to scrutiny by people with a much better head for economics than me, and they can't agree either.

Plus I'm not expert on teacher's pensions but I remember reading plenty on the lecturer's pension pot, along the lines of 'we can't afford it, the public purse, blah blah'. Which is fine, but actually the public purse doesn't put anything towards it!

I loathe this feeling of well, the private sector is suffering, so the public sector has to'. Er, no? How's about the private sector starts to kick the arses of their overlords as well?! Why the hell are we trying to deny people earning £35,000 a decent bloody pension?! Because that might be over the national wage average but it sure as shit doesn't come close to what MPs are earning, or the owners of the huge private-sector companies that union-bust so they can continue to pay utter shite and no benefits.

Instead it's 'well I work harder than you for thruppence a week, therefore you must to', and condemning those who strike! I can point to a load of people who are making these cuts who are going to have a gold-plated fucking pension, and a big payout to help them adjust to 'life after Parliament', even though when they leave they'll be able to command a bigger salary, and they earn a decent whack as well. Genuinely, I don't begrudge them a penny of it.

But when they DARE to stand up and say 'we can't afford this, and you are wrong for protesting this, you are taking the bread from the mouths of babes with your demands for a decent pension. And as for YOU, with your need for a wheelchair and respite care and all those other services that we 'can't afford' now, well, you're a scrounger as well', oh, my blood boils.

As you can probably tell.

But Maxpower - I'm not aware of anyone I actually know who has been made redundant in the last year or so APART from my uncle who worked in arts education (cuts). Most of our wider circle of friends work in the private sector, banking, engineering (railways), IT, secretarial, plumbing and so on. This includes a good friend who is a builder and is solidly booked for months ahead.

The only friend I've heard concerns from recently apart from in terms of the usual complaints we all (including teachers) have about the cost of living rising (food shopping and so on) is my friend who is a nurse and who is fearful for her job.

I genuinely cannot think of anyone else who has mentioned pension terms and conditions changing, possible redundancy, changes to employment and so on.

So why are we targeting teachers/nurses and public sector workers if it is not that it suits the political ideology of the government.

Redundanices are facing a lot of people both private and public sector. My dp has survived redundancy twice, he has however had to go down to a 3 and then 4 day week. He has had to give up holiday pay and is not out of the woods yet.

This is why this is not about public v private it is about the haves and the have nots. Those breezing through the cuts and those being asked to pay the price.

But it's not as simple as saying 'all teachers/benefit claimants/single parents/bankers/private sector workers' are breezing through, any more than you can say the opposite.

My family is a mix of public and private, and six months ago we were all unemployed! Now we're not. My friend got treated like shit by a private sector finance company that 'went bust' (with a surprisingly large number of assets) and yet another friend can't get proper maternity benefits because she's worked in the public sector for three years, but only on one-year contracts.

Blimey pooka what world do you live in, lucky old you? My DH works in construction and has - very sadly - had to make many people redundant, lay others off and cut the pay of some of the remaining staff. My Manager's husband has been made redundant (experienced electrician) and has been forced into commuting hundreds of miles to Scotland weekly to find work. Another colleague's husband (plumber) is now working away as its that or nothing.

Delurking, I may be wrong but I think I saw some actuarial information recently that suggested statistically speaking, teachers die earlier than people in some other professions, suggesting that they don't draw the pension for as long. So it's not as simple as just adding up the uplift and so on.

Follyfoot - I know that it seems odd. Live in a pretty average world. Dh works for the family heating business. They haven't had to make any redundancies - though they haven't replaced two admin staff who retired recently. And he is currently negotiating with fitters regarding their pay demands (in terms of jobs/day and payment/job and potential on-call. The fitters earn more than he does (and more than I ever did as public sector professional). But it's always been that way - good to get in a trade and heating does seem to be one of those trades where recession (touching wood) doesn't hit so hard (and certainly not like construction industry).

Actually I've not got work at the moment. I left work after I had dc2 but then was taken on as a freelancer by the local council. But related to construction and obviously that was hit hard. So no freelance work for me any more. Also no pension apart from the frozen one I paid into while I was working. Fortunately dh can cover our outgoings.

But I'm genuinely wracking my brains re: people I know. And I don't know anyone apart from my uncle (education) and the nurse I mentioned earlier (so both public sector to an extent) who have been cut or are facing job cuts or changes to t&c.

Look, I know that lots of people are struggling. It just seems perverse to me that because people in the private sector are feeling squished, that that should justify going after the people in the public sector who may have earned less in a working lifetime despite bing amply qualified and trained, and taking away the benefits that offset the vocational (i.e, poorly paid in relation to higher education and training) aspect of public sector employment and the difference that they make to society as a whole.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that making public pensions less generous will alleviate the poor state of private pensions.

As I understand it, current employees fund retired employees pensions and this used to be adequate. This is no longer the case and we are looking at a huge deficit which will have to be funded by taxpayers.

It is simply not possible for everyone to enjoy the same very generous pensions that teachers and other public sector employees have. Life expectancy has increased dramatically over the past few decades and the burden on taxpayers to fund the deficit will increase dramatically too.

I see no option than that these public sector pensions need to be reduced.
It is completely unacceptable to expect workers in the private sector, many of whom earn less and are likely to retire on far smaller pensions to fund teachers and others in their current generous retirement.

The teachers' pension scheme is self supporting.
Teachers are tax-payers too, so it does not make sense to say the taxpayer is supporting teachers.

Most families I know have been affected by redundancy. I was made redundant in 2009, at the same time 3 of the women out of our 4 neighbours households were made redundant. My aunt and my dad were made redundant in 2010 and my sister has survived redundancy twice in the last 3 years. I'm shocked at those that don't know anyone affected by redundancy recently as it seems like every one of my neighbour's, families and friend's households have had a brush with redundancy recently.

And it looks likely I'll be made redundant again soon .

it is NOT self-supporting - it is taxpayer-supported. The employer, the taxpayer who does not get any benefit (as opposed to the teacher) puts in over double what the beneficiary pays. This will STILL not cover the liabilities of the scheme at the moment, so someone has to pay more. A lot of you think it should be us, the general taxpayer, I (and, I am delighted to learn!) others think that shortfall should be met by those who will benefit, as in other schemes.

The scheme is 'self-supporting' in the same way as a student at university earning a wage from a job and with an allowance from their parents might be said to be 'self-supporting', assuming that if, for example, the rent on their room were to go up, the parents would make up the shortfall. To say it is self-supporting in this context is basically the same as saying it is not allowed to go bankrupt because we, the taxpayer, will always make up the shortfall. Only soon we won't be able to do that and actually fund any schools for the teachers to teach in.......

And where do the teachers get the money from to be taxpayers? Yes that's right....the taxpayers. Sometimes I really wonder if people think governments can make money appear using a magic wand! If they could, Greece could really do with it right now.

It's not about making the public sector suffer just because the private sector has.

It's about being realistic and realising that with the best will in the world, if the private sector does badly, there's less money to go around and it's inevitable the public sector will also suffer.

Let's have another analogy. You are a SAHM. You work hard raising the kids and doing a very valuable job. Your DH works hard to ensure you are all supported. But wait....the economy hits a wall and he's had to take a pay cut.

Does that mean you aren't working as hard? No of course not. Does that mean you deserve to suffer through no fault of your own? No of course not.

Are you going to be affected? Yes, you betcha!