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Let Children be Children

81 replies

Bellie · 04/06/2011 09:28

Wow! Well done mumsnet!

www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/jun/03/cameron-backed-report-commercialisation-childhood?CMP=twt_gu

OP posts:
PerfickMuther · 07/06/2011 07:55

Did a spokesperson from Mumsnet really say ? Adultifaication? on the radio yesterday? Shame on you. I have just joined to post this comment. Interested to see your talk topic ?Feed the world? doesn?t mention contraception - unbeleivable

porpoisefull · 07/06/2011 08:27

I agree with this article by Jackie Ashley - it's almost pointless trying to crack down on particular manifestations of the message that young girls are absorbing on what it means to be female if we're afraid to properly challenge that view and talk about equality, or as it's otherwise called, feminism.

"Without a feminist perspective you have no hope of an honest discussion about the sexualisation of young girls. They are being groomed ? not by pervy old men hanging over computer keyboards, but by today's ideology-free, value-free consumer culture, which tells them they're sexually hot or they're nothing.

Somewhere along the line, the old feminist hope that women, like men, would be valued for their skills, brains, hard work, entrepreneurial chutzpah, experience and humour ? well, it just got dropped."

"We can only help [..] if we have a good alternative to offer: the role models, the interesting jobs and the alternative ways of enjoying life that make a padded bra and a bit of rude dancing on the telly not shocking ? just rather dull."

RamblingRosa · 07/06/2011 08:37

I agree Porpoisefull. I'm a bit uncomfortable with the whole moralistic, censorious tone of the Bailey review. There's little if any recognition of the role of gender stereotyping (on women as well as girls) and, as Jackie Ashley says "the ideology free, value free consumer culture, which tells them they're sexually hot or they're nothing."

I thought this Comment Is Free piece (the first one by Holly Dustin) summed up the problems with the review really well.

Threadworm8 · 07/06/2011 08:37

Thanks for that link. Yes, good article.

JenaiMarrHePlaysGuitar · 07/06/2011 09:17

PerfickMuther why would Feed The World have a section on contraception? It's a cooking/weaning/breastfeeding/formula feeding section Confused

The Contraception topic comes under Health.

I assume you're confusing it with a Live Aid style crusade or somesuch.

Great links, Porpoisefull and Rosa. Thank you :)

JenaiMarrHePlaysGuitar · 07/06/2011 09:21

The second pice in the Comment is Free article is very good.

a bizarre coalition of prudes, dudes and guilt-tripping parents Yup!

and

it fits with a zeitgeist, a narrative that sees the exceptional as commonplace: views childish experimentation through adult eyes (and so inflicts the very sexualisation it claims to be against); and subtly places responsibility for bad things happening in the victim, not in the perpetrator. yes, yes, yes!!!

I'm so glad there are more articulate people than I out there who aren't falling for all this bollocks.

JenaiMarrHePlaysGuitar · 07/06/2011 09:23

more articulate people than I - that was really crap English, wasn't it Confused

I rest my case Grin

Threadworm8 · 07/06/2011 09:56
Grin Yes, I think I agree with all that. The Bailey thing had the potential to be good, and there is a need for concern in the face of a consumerized version of sex being thrust at children (at the same time as a consumerized version of everything else in their life is thrown at them). But in fact it has played into a rather different rhetoric. And you have to question whether it ever had the weight to do a worthwhile job. An article somewhere made the point that it is based on polling rather than comprehensive research, and the guy running it has no relevant expertise.
MumOtherHalfWhatever · 07/06/2011 14:23

As Barbara Ellen said in the weekend papers, the 'Porn Star' knickers don't jump off the shop shelves and into our daughters' underwear drawer on their own. That said I find my daughter's constant requests for make up and high heels very wearing and have to keep reminding myself why I say 'No' umpteen times a day.

Catmilk · 07/06/2011 19:35

I think lads mags are silly but mostly harmless - but if people are worried about what a child might see when looking for Peppa Pig, why are (some) women's magazine's never mentioned? I'm happier for my little ones to see a woman in a bikini than read headline after headline about 'I was raped by my own brother!' 'Forced to have sex with my neighbour' 'Pregnant by my dad!' 'He killed my baby and raped my sister and chopped up granny etc etc.'

These are also the magazines that many parents feel are fine to leave around the house, they are in doctor's waiting rooms, etc - lads mags once bought mainly stay under their owners filthy mattress away from child's eyes.

birchykel · 07/06/2011 22:53

I totally agree Catmilk, children are able to see these womens mags everywhere, but I also think not only lad mags but music videos are just awful. Maybe going off on the point here but I love the fact my daughter enjoys music and a variety of singers but I hate the fact the videos to go with it are so degrading and rather naughty for my 8 year old to be watching. I dont know what others opinions on this are but I for one think its sad.
Some are just too raunchy but surely these 'role model' singers should be thinking of their young fans that will be seeing them almost naked, rubbing themselves up and down anything they can.
I dont know maybe i am wrong on this but i really dont like it.

But yes I certainly agree that mags found in docs surgery and next to childrens comics are also terrible, our children should be allowed to stay innocent for as long as poss.

littlemum007 · 08/06/2011 09:27

This is great news. Certainly a step in the right direction. I think not only should mens' magasines be put on the top shelf but they should also be placed in plain covers and colour colded - green cover for mild innuendo and the like, amber for moderate sexual content and red for full frontal and whatever - as regards to the content of each and whether the magasine should be placed in a green, amber or red cover, and the obvious arguments of degree and nature of teh content, the standards to be adopted should be the standards of the ordinary woman in the street. If we want to really clean things up also, on each cover should be in black bold letters "YOU ARE DEGRADING WOMEN BY PURCHASING THIS".

littlemum007 · 08/06/2011 09:28

Or better still "YOUR MUM KNOWS YOU'VE JUST BOUGHT THIS"

Catmilk · 08/06/2011 10:44

Artists like Rihanna, like Madonna before her, want as many fans as possible - but they do not aim their material at children. In fact, in order to seem cool to the older teens they must do stuff that is too raunchy for kids - which only makes the kids want to be like the teens already!

But Rihanna & Lady Gaga are free to sing about whatever they want, to make whatever videos they want. Putting age-restrictions on them might work,l or like the PMRC ones that the US tried, might just make the item more desirable. We have watershed times for pop videos that should be and are mostly adhered to - I think Anna Richardson managed to find very few breaches of it on her Stop Pimping Our Kids series, and resorted to implying videos like N.E.R.D.s Lapdance (10 years old) were being shown before 9, when I don't think it's ever been shown before midnight!

Anyway it's up to parents of course. If you don't want your children to have CDs by Rihanna or The Butthole Surfers, it's not Reg Bailey or the Mother's Union's job to keep them out of your children's hands, it's YOURS.

JenaiMarrHePlaysGuitar · 08/06/2011 10:55

lolol at Butthole Surfers. Wasn't it them that did the song that went "Kunts, kunts, kunts, kunts, kunts...."

Couldn't agree more btw, Catmilk

And the Mother's Union will dictate the music my ds listens to (or not) over my dead body.

JenaiMarrHePlaysGuitar · 08/06/2011 10:57

Oh, oh, oh! Maybe we should try and get that track to No1. See what the Mother's Union do. iirc it was some kind of tribal chanting

Catmilk · 08/06/2011 11:05

Yes it's like an Eastern meditation thing. And it's not rude because look you can see how it's spelt...

pot39 · 08/06/2011 11:14

Not shopping at those shops who refuse to do anything is the strongest weapon.
Also as a mother of boys, I know they will look at the furore and once again think that the world cares more about girls than boys.
Ref: the watershed, all subteens should be in bed by 9 anyway, if you don't know what your children are watching on screen through i player etc, and you care enough then you SHOULD know, no computers/TV's in bedrooms etc. I know it sounds draconian but it works. We're not perfect but we do talk to the boys about why stuff is on later and if we think the 11 yr old can watch something post 9pm e.g Outnumbered (for the lord's sake why's that on at 9.30) and have i got news for you, which encourages healthy debate about the news, we either watch it with him or record it.
Ref Porn it's a rite of passage for teenage boys you have to be wise to it, tease them gently, acknowledge it and they'll get over it. Don't pretend it isn't there.

Catmilk · 08/06/2011 15:46

I found this comparison of the covers of lads mags & womens mags - I'd like serious answers on which people think need to be kept away from children's eyes more!

thebockingfordkid.wordpress.com/

ziptoes · 08/06/2011 20:09

Oh, this is so depressing. This report has totally missed the point. That Jackie Ashely quote is spot on, thanks porpoiseful. I really hope this remains a voluntary code. The thought of some Mother's Union loon deciding what is suitable for my daughter to wear makes my blood run cold. Not helped by the fact that I've just finished reading the Handmaids Tale.

I agree pot39. Isn't the fact that my local high street shop only sells T-shirts for boys with "cheeky monkey" on them equally as sexist? (usually camo with skulls) i.e. boys are naughty, dirty creatures and girls are sweet little princesses. Until gender specific toys are meaningless, there will always be a "sexual" element to them. My neighbour was genuinely worried that the fact that DS has a tiara and a toy cooker was going to turn him gay ffs!

I'm not being very eloquent here, but I agree with just about everything catmilk has said.

Catmilk · 08/06/2011 20:24

I'd add to that Jackie Ashley quote - if little girls know they are going to grow up into women with all the choices they want, it will be ok for them to play with make-up sometimes, because they will also play with being a cop, an astronaut or a President Who Saves The World too - just like boys do. Sadly the (Christian) Mother's Union are probably the last people you want on your side if you want to see that happen.

SpringchickenGoldBrass · 09/06/2011 21:21

I'm glad I'm not the on ly one who is thoroughly unasy about this. It was the repetition of the word 'modest' that made me feel nauseous. I kept thinking of that story about girls being banned from doing handstands and cartwheels in case anyone saw their knickers. What with the current scary crap about segragating girls to force feed them abstinence messages... the pro-repression people are not on the feminist side of the argument.

Capiche · 09/06/2011 21:33

agreed

zipi /sgb

takethatlady · 10/06/2011 08:31

Not sure whether people watched Question Time last night. Germaine Greer and Peter Hitchens were on, along with two very bland coalition representatives, so it was a parody of a debate rather than a genuine debate. I strongly feel that, despite my sympathies for a certain kind of 1970s feminism, of which Greer claims to be a representative, it does exactly the same thing as misogyny by reducing women to their bodies and their sexualities (by denying those bodies and that sexuality in quite a puritanical fashion, and telling women that they must reject that part of themselves). Greer's suggestion that flirtation is necessarily disempowering, 'coy' and' manipulative' is peculiar to me because it is utterly blind to context and circumstances. Flirtation can be disempowering, it can be empowering, and it can be neutral, depending on that context.

What scares me about this whole debate is, as other posters have written, that it depends upon teaching girls that their sexuality and the sexual power they may wield when they are women is an illusion or a sham and that there is a more authentic self to be had. I am horrified by the Barbie girl/Jordan/getting-your-8-year-old Botox culture, and am horrified at the lack of choice in baby shops for young boys and girls (all pink princesses and blue with trains and tractors on it) because it reduces children to parodies of themselves, to very restrictive and reductive notions of their identity and of their possibilities in the world. But I also think that, as an adult, wearing high heels and lipstick and fitted clothing doesn't make you less of a feminist, just as long as that is only part of a much broader, richer identity and as long as that performance of femininity doesn't hinder you - it is awful when women don't do certain jobs because it conflicts with their desire to look a certain way, for instance - and as long as we realise that it really is a performance and that in other contexts and other places we can perform our identities differently. Children don't always have the same self-awareness or ability to see through it all that adults have, but we're doing them a disservice if we don't at least try to teach them to see that.

All I want for my children is that they can grow up thinking that anything is possible, that all women are attractive (and not just those who fit a particular stereotype), and not to define themselves by reductive, restrictive marketing stereotypes. But it's naive to think they won't exist or that our children won't be aware of them. I think in general most parents and most young women achieve a balanced perspective by the time they're grown up - after all, we do have female doctors, astronauts, academics, army officers, writers, politicians, lawyers and so on, and while things are far from perfect we are able to conduct intelligent debates about gender politics. So I think avoiding all the padded-bra tat as much as possible, but also offering our sons and daughters as wide a range as possible of experiences, options and ideas about who they might be and who they might become, is the only way forward. Asking them to deny part of themselves/cover up/be more 'modest' is too simplistic and equally reductive as asking them to think of that part of themselves as all there is to them.

Not sure if any of that makes sense!

Threadworm8 · 10/06/2011 09:11

That is a very eloquent and interesting post, takethatlady. I didn't see the Newsnight discussion, and don't want to defend Greer in particular. But in principle it must be possible to acknowledge, as you say, that a sexual identity, and the performance of that identity, can be as valued and authentic a part of a woman's overall identity (an identity conveived by you I think as an amalgum of a range of different, mutually complementing, authentic performances) -- and at the same time to retain a severely critical perspective on an inauthentic performance of sexuality, the one that is pushed on us by a 'pornified' culture, with commercial interests being formost among the pushers.

If some feminists have been in the position of rejecting the authentic performance of sexuality as an important element in our identity (I don't know enough about it to know if they have), then I can see that is an error, perhaps one that is generated by anxiety at the prevalence of the pressures towards an ersatz performance.

I think you articulate well the ways in which the Bailey Report and the Let Girls be Girls campaign have failed to express the concerns and objectives well enough to prevent legitimate worries being misrepresented as a moral panic about children's sexual exploration.

The distinction between valuable authentic performances of sex, and an ersatz performance shaped by the 'pornification' of sex is an excellent way to pin down the critique of commercial pressures. 'Pornification' is a special case of consumerization -- it is the consumerization of sexuality. Our performed identities across the whole range of our daily lives are increasingly distorted into their ersatz, consumerized, form. We don't 'thank the teacher' we buy a gift that Tesco has branded as a teacher-thanking gift, etc, etc across all activities.

A good version of the Bailey Report would have been one that made crystal clear the distinction between sexualisation on the one hand, and sexual objectification on the other -- with sexual objectification being seen not only as the colonisation of girls' bodies by men's eyes, but also as a special case of our across-the-board objectification by commerce as sources of profit.