The genderless baby

[Cadpat]

Have you guys seen this? This Canadian couple is raising their youngest to be genderless, as in, no one except a few people know if it's a girl or boy.

Found it very interesting myself, was wondering what you guys think?

Link here

I am all in favour of allowing boys and girls to do all sorts of activities - DS does football and dance classes and has recently taken to playing with my old dolls' house, as well as having his own toy vacuum cleaner and kitchen to go with his cars and trains etc.

But I am not sure that this is a kind thing to do to a child, to not allow it to know what gender it is. Obviously it's going to have some kind of clue - their other sons know they are boys and so the youngest is going to find out when the older boys compare genitalia (as they all do, don't they?).

So long as the parents are happy for this child to make its own decisions (who really does that??) and to allow this child to be a very boyish boy (or girly girl) if that is what they choose, then I suppose it will turn out ok in the long run.

i don't think they are keeping it from storm - the intention is just not to tell the rest of the nosy beggars, isn't it?

well, if they're not keeping it from Storm then they're not raising Storm genderless, are they? Because when Storm can speak, Storm will be telling people that Storm is a boy/girl, if my DS is anything to go by.

that's why i'm curious how it works longer term - you never hear anything past the initial baby stage...

i think they are raising storm genderless to society - so that society can't tamper with his/her development. the family (brothers and a family friend) know the sex anyway. but they aren't telling anyone else.

i was interested in their holiday experience. (they flipped a coin to decide gender for the holiday as their language skills weren't up to debating gender with the locals). and also that they have adopted (s)he as a pronoun (with silent brackets...)

it must be exhausting, but i bet really makes you think about how much of life is gendered.

no idea whether it's possible or advisable from a psychological or longer term view. but a truly utopian ideal...

Hmmmm. Well if Storm is to know whether Storm is boy or girl then it's not so bad; but I think it might be bloody hard to keep it going. Especially if Storm turns out to be particularly male or female, as I said before - are they going to alllow that, as it will make it obvious to society which Storm is, and therefore their efforts to maintain genderlessness will be futile; or are they going to try and coerce Storm into ambiguity? That's the thing that bothers me, I guess.

In the book "Cinderella Ate My Daughter" there was an interesting bit about children clinging more to stereotypical gender norms when adults were ambiguous about them. Because...crap, I'm not going to explain this very well. Children sense early on that they are definitely boys or girls, and when adults try to convince them that it doesn't matter they will cling all the more to what they perceive to be "girl things" or "boy things."

My DS is constantly saying "this is for boys" no matter how often I tell him that it's okay for girls or boys to play with all kinds of things or wear all kinds of colors.

But. I can see how this would be a problem for children who are boys or girls but don't feel as if they are.

that bothers me too tbh. (difficult to tell whether jazz, for example, has been totally indoctrinated, or whether he is a true free spirit... i mean, they are obviously ecstatci that the boy has nice long plaits. if he had wanted a crew cut, would they have been so amenable?)

you would have to be so careful not to introduce bias, that it would be almost impossible to show real personal preference.

i loathe the media coverage though. 'jazz loves purple and likes the feel of a swishy dress round his ankles'. such tosh. they aren't at such pains to print that he also likes dinosaurs and soldiers, are they?

i read a similar thing written by an ardent feminist who was aghast that her girls were flagrantly and disobediently pink, yank.

i don't know that it's possible not to introduce bias of some sort, in whichever direction. but i do applaud people for trying, even if it doesn't work out.

In the end, I guess the children themselves will sort it out - they'll either be happy dressing either way or they'll rebel and be utterly boyish.

Even that poor man, David Reimer, he decided for himself that he wasn't a girl (I remember seeing a documentary about that years ago, it was very upsetting) and stopped "being" a girl. I know that transgender children live their lives feeling that they are in the wrong body from quite an early age; imagine thinking that and then finding out that actually, you were a boy all along!

I believe that there is some movement towards allowing gender reassignment before puberty hits, to avoid some of the surgery that would be necessary post-puberty - and also to avoid the psychological trauma of going through the "wrong" puberty. But that's by the bye.

I will swear to you on anything you like that I tried to raise DS as neutrally as possible, and he does love dancing (mostly techno music atm, yuck!) and flowers. But his true interests at this point are knights, dinosaurs, and superheroes. I don't let him watch superhero shows much (beyond Superman cartoons from the 40's, occasionally) but he loves the idea of them. His personality is one strongly committed to justice and leadership and speaking out for others. (Well, he's not quite 4, so all that could change of course!) Yes, I have raised him to be "tough", but I think I'd do the same with a girl...the things I think are most important in life are to be kind and resilient. :)

It's hard when liberal types (of which I have always considered myself one) look at him askance and sniff "he's such a boy , isn't he?" Well, yes...he has a penis if that's what you mean. I think his personality isn't related to gender so much. It's just who he is.

you are right of course. that's what makes it so interesting i think. for it be completely unbiased is impossible.

thumbwitch - yes, there is a trial i think. don't start a thread on it on the fem board unless you have time for a lengthy debate though. i am fascinated by trans. much to my chagrin, i don't feel essentially female at all. or male. i just am. i got into a ruck on the fem board recently by stating this. i honestly had no idea people (except those who identify as trans) identified so strongly as either male or female. i just don't. and i have three kids! i'm not particularly attached to my boobs (they were useful for bf though). i don't have anything against anyone who is, but i was quite quite baffled.

it really opened my mind. feminism and equality means so many different things to different people.

i think that's why the idea appeals to me to be honest. i don't feel particularly female, so i object to being treated as a stereotypical female. which really equates to being told how to act and be. which is oppressive at best. i don't want to be put into a bix, so the idea of someone attempting not to put their child into a box seems appealing.

of course, this isn't an ideal world though, and so the child will be subject to all sorts of ither issues that wouldn't have occurred if the parents hadn't been ideologically motivated.

See, I have hard time because I do like to do stereotypical female things and have been made to feel like I shouldn't. :) It's such a mixed up thing, and deeply personal, isn't it?

People. What funny animals we are!

it's just the stereotyping that's annoying. i don't care for one moment if you like to wear a pinny and heels and bake in false eyelashes. nor do i particularly care if my son does. but i don't want society at large looking at you, or him, and a 'feminine' caption coming up. and i don't want you to feel you have to bake because you have breasts, or for him to feel he can't wear false eyelashes because he's got a penis.

it's very weird when we feel as though we're letting the side down because we are following the rules lol. i'm quite cross with myself for being married and not living in a commune somewhere. i suppose at least these guys don't feel that way... courage of their convictions and all that.

i wish they would do follow-up interviews though.
even if it's to say 'it was impossible' or 'storm decided she was a girl and insisted on wearing just pink from 3yo'. i'd love to hear how you maintain a genderless existence past the toddler stage, regardless of the unschooling. society must bump up against everyone unless they live in a very different culture. (we have hutterites here who are ruthless wrt their interactions with western society).

I agree 100%. We're all supposed to have a choice , isn't that the point of it?

Also I would love to live in a commune. We could have a big stone farmhouse and free range eggs and fields of organic lavender. As long as I could do the baking and pottering-about-the-farmhouse. In fake eyelashes. :o

Agh, fake eyelashes - tried them for a fancy-dress party once - they were terrible! Am in awe of people who wear them regularly. But not

I have some sympathy with you there, madwoman - I am female and know it but don't go all feminine about it. I have spent a large proportion of my life in jeans and jumpers to avoid being feminine. The only thing I keep is my long hair, and that's only so I can tie it back in a ponytail and not have to do things like "style" it. I used to think I would prefer to be a boy, but it wasn't a deep-seated "I SHOULD be a boy" thing.

But even with just being tomboyish, I got comments - "you should do x/y/z to pretty yourself up a bit" - why? Made no sense to me. Still doesn't!

I don't fancy commune living at all - I'm a "my home is my castle and pull up the drawbridge" kind of person!

Ridiculous. It has to grow up and become a sexual being and then they will have to deal with the fall out. They do not own this child. It is not possible to really 'do' this as genetics and nature are more powerful than a couple of hippy parents with an axe to grind

madwoman I kind of had to use her in my feminist literary and cultural theory exam that I did yesterday afternoon. As a nod to MN (and Dittany in particular) I refused to call her a feminist though and simply referred to her as a theorist. Am I forgiven?

we are moving at the mo and i was sorting out my books into 'need now' and 'can be put into boxes until laaaaaater'. i was mentally ticking off in my head 'dittany would like that', 'oo, dittany would hate that'. i must do a tally and see whether i can ever set foot on a fem thread again... i do confess to having, erm, 4 jb texts, i think. one isn't gender based though - 'frames of war'. and i do have a good raft of the stuff (about two shelves full) that apparently doesn't feature on any courses ever (despite me buying it for coursework over the years). ho hum. if it matters, she's not called a feminist on the covers anyway, but a 'social theorist'.

it seems madness to attempt to limit who you are allowed to critique. i am a book whore. anyone is fair game, really.

thumb, my manager at work used to regularly confess that she was dying to give me a makeover. apparently i could be gorgeous. oh, and she really admires my outlook, because i just don't give a damn what i look like. i don't work there any more.

i could do a commune of the yank variety. but yes, would need a drawbridge for my anti-social bit of it as necessary.

Interesting was the word that came into my mind too when I read about this! So then I thought 'hey I don't find this at all threatening and some people obviously have problems with it - why?' Worth analysing the answers. My next thought was that when they are small in the home it need not come up anyway but when they mix socially and at school it is going to be unavoidable. My DD and DS are now teeneagers and my DD 13 started menstruating this week as it happens (well prepared by Mum needless to say!) so it is apposite. Then I found myself losing interest as they are what they are and we have not brought them up referencing their gender anyway! But we have just discussed poor Milly Dowler and her family's agony this week and agreed that women/girls are more vulnerable than males. But the young people immediately came up with the only solution - thay are to enrol in martial arts classes so anyone who bothers them will soon regret it... Excuse my ramblings!

Silly sods. I wonder what sort of nappies they are gong to buy?

And just wait till he asks for a tin truck or she asks for a doll!

um, washable?

Well let's hope the kids have a big strong sense of humour to cope with that.

Speaking as one who absent-mindedly dressed her DD in boys' clothes and cut her hair short because it just seemed more practical, and DD was okay with it until two 3yo girls got really upset about it and told her she "must wear a skirt" and "must grow her hair long". It's clearly something very important for people to know whether someone is male or female. What is really annoying is that so many feminine signals are so utterly impractical.

Must go and clean all the mud off the lavender leggings and wash the clicky-clacky sparkly silver sandals...

I don't have an issue with it, per se.

However, I think the real problem may come when the boy starts to want "boy" stuff (sticks, guns etc) and indulge in rough boy play - I suspect his parents will be highly disapproving of that and steer him toward more socially acceptable peaceful, girl-orientated activities.

I think they definitely have an agenda with not letting boys be boys, and the 'lack of gender' is just a smokescreen for that.