Sectarianism in Scotland

[Chil1234]

Parcel bombs to Celtic connections today & a Scottish link with the murder of a N. Ireland policeman a few weeks ago. Religious sectarianism has always bubbled under the surface in Glasgow but what's caused the current escalation? Miserable lot.

Macdog, I must live about 2 minutes away from you. The sectarianism in this area is and always has been appalling and most of it does surround the football. You can't even safely call your kids things like Sean or Lachlann for fear of them being singled out.

The people behind the violence/hatred usually have nothing to do with religion, the just hate what is different to themselves. There is awful racism here as well.

it's fuelled by poverty, poor education, worse parenting, lack of opportunity and all round hopelessness. I don't know what the solution is because I don't remember it ever being any different.

I'm from Edinburgh and it ALWAYS has been a thing in Scotland. I definitely agree with stressed, it's a known thing that some will decide your religion for you based on the name of your child like Sean
It is mostly based around the football (Celtic/Rangers) but it exists in the East too, here Hearts Fc are considered (The cousins of Orange) and Hibs are linked to a Celtic/Irish collection.
It's the first thing i have been asked on an occasion, "how i can be a protestant and be a Hibs fan? shouldn't i have been a hearts fan?"
The same with School's here too, there was a catholic high school right next door a protestant school and they had different start/finish times along with different lunchtimes, as they couldn't mix due to fighting that would break out.

fizzylaces, it was a football top. Trish Godman is entitled to support whichever team she chooses and is equally entitled to identify herself as such. You and I both know that, if she had worn a top for Raith Rovers or Inverness Caledonian Thistle, it would not have attracted anything like the same notice and I doubt that you'd have thought it so reprehensible.

The sooner green and blue can go back to just being colours like any other colour, the better.

Macdog - I live in Kilwinning, where one of the letter bombs was posted.

I know the area well too and walk past that post box frequently while walking my dog in the forrestry area half a mile away (up past the farm).

The reason I think that post box was specially chosen is that there is actually nothing overlooking it. For example many postboxes are close to shops, within town centres or supermarkets where there is a greater chance of CCTV being in operation.
This postbox is in a housing estate on a bit of a rundown street so chances are not many residents have CCTV and knowing the area there is not actually a house across from the PB so it would be easy to for anyone from miles around to post anything there and walk / drive away without drawing too much attention to themselves :(

Definitely schools have a huge part in this attitude in the west coast. Stop the segregated schools and this problem may greatly improve in a generation. Catholic (and other religious) education has no place in the state school system.

most people are turning away from this but really have no idea how ingrained it is until they move away to somewhere where this kind of thing is not an issue. I'm glad my kids are growing up somewhere where they can wear whatever football top they want and will never be aware of this.

Neil Lennon has always attracted this kind of sectarianism. A catholic playing for NI and now Celtic manager, he is a strong target. He doesn't help himself by losing the plot in old firm games.
My Irish DH lived in Glasgow when I met him. Sectarianism was far worse in Glasgow than where he's from (a major flashpoint)
Horrendous to think that a minority seem to be desperate to go back to the bad old days.

I have to say that following yesterdays match there was only 9 arrests which is amazing for an old firm game. Neil Lennon hit the news again though for antagonising rangers fans and he was questioned by police. If the managers can't behave then what hope have we got with the fans?

Yes, malibustac, but what did he actually do that was wrong? He made a gesture, presumably of defiance or something like it. He's had heaps of vitriol and had parcel bombs addressed to him. A little bravado is hardly surprising, is it.

To be honest after what he has been through surely bravado would be the last thing he was thinking of. I think what he has been subjected to is disgusting and no-one should have to deal with that. My point is leading by example is the way forward so silly gestures don't seem to help but that's just my opinion.

What is happening to Neil Lennon is terrible however I don't think he helps himself tbh. He is aggressive, antagonistic and totally devoid of dignity from what I can see. You don't have to behave like that to be an old firm manager. He carries a lot of baggage with him but does seem to make himself an easy target.

I'm really not comfortable with blaming the victim in this. We speak out against that kind of thing elsewhere. This should be no different.

Mellowfrutifulness "What's interesting is that I think it's the Catholic population of Glasgow in particular who are voting for Labour and keeping them powerful in Scotland. I wonder if the publicity generated by this will benefit the Labour party or the SNP (mainly Protestant) in the next elections. "

I agree. I'm from rural East Scotland and have also lived in the North East and this is not a feature there. Its not a traditional Scottish thing at all and I know very few people who vote Labour, so at times it seems like a totally alien culture foisted upon Scotland.

However I do sympathise with people who suffer from sectarianism. I drive a car which was bought in Northern Ireland, because it was a bit of a bargain and a special model, and has a N Irish numberplate. Recently driving into Edinburgh I was subjected to the most god awful tailgating, aggressive driving and being followed. The other car had an Irish (Republic) numberplate. Can anyone tell me what on earth all of that was about?

Mshighwater* - I do not condone the sending of letter bombs to Neil Lennon and his family at all, completely out of order, and now a criminal investigation that hopefully will lead to arrests to soon, yes hes def the "victim" here.

But on the football field at Ibrox on Sunday afternoon he was def not the victim - he deliberately tried to antagonise the Rangers fans - just because he could and wanted to. Hes a hothead and I know a lot of Celtic fans themselves are sick of the example he is setting - how can the players, never mind the fans look at this man as a representative of Cetic football club when his behaviour is deliberately antagonistic?

I also find it quite offensive as others have said that suddenly "the Scots" are all sectarian bombers now. I to live in a small town in Ayrshirre and my Rangers supporting 18 year old son has lots of Celtic supporting friends - just because sectarianism is an issue does not mean it is everywhere or all consuming.

At the last Old Firm game, the players and managers were terribly behaved. Ally McCoist and Neil Lennon were pulled apart several times. They are setting a poor example and there is no excuse for it.

To be fair Ally McCoist is one of the most mild mannered blokes you could meet. It's very rare to see him lose it.

I don't think Lennon has got the temperment for that job. He is hotheaded - always was. You need to be competitive obv but also able to cope with the pressure. It's clear Lennon struggles with that and I think that has made him more of a target tbh. Must be a bloody nightmare for his family.

stressedHEmum and Xbellesx
I'm in the main town of Kilwinning. We should do meet-up

(probably know you both, but not as MNers)

Im not that many miles away from Kilwinning either.

And totally agree with you molly

Newgolddream, I probably should point out that I live, as I always have, in the west of Scotland. I did manage to avoid much of the sectarianism, in part because no-one in my family cares about football (despite my father growing up a stone's throw from the home of one of the Old Firm teams). I also take exception to any implication that this problem is caused by the majority if Scots, or even the majority of Scots in the west.

I would probably accept, though, that the prejudice on which the violence is based has many shades. I believe that the worst behaviour is at the end of a spectrum that includes behaviour and attitudes that are far less obviously prejudiced but which nevertheless support and perpetuate the prejudice and hatred.

As far as I'm concerned, regardless of other considerations, religiously segregated schools in this part of the world are unhelpful. RC schools might achieve good results but it's not the only way to do that and I think that it just makes dealing with the problem harder. I read today on the BBC website about 2 schools in Oldham that are being merged expressly to address conflict and unrest in the community they serve. Of course, in Oldham, the current segregation of the schools is not official policy and is on racial more than on religious grounds but, still, it seems self-evident there that bringing the communities together is the way to resolve the tensions that led to riots 10 years ago. Why, then, is it defensible that school children should be deliberately separated on such spurious grounds as their religion?

Macdog/stressedHEMum - we grew up very close to Kilwinning and can agree sectarianism is very alive and well down there.

I agree that religion should be taken right out of education and should be left to the parents at home. In saying that my DC are baptised RC and attend an RC school, it is the closest school to us, class sizes are under 20 whereas the no denom school has 60 in a given year.

Celtic and Rangers should be forced to merge into one Glasgow superclub, play in a new ground with a purple strip!

New North Ayrshire thread on Mumsnet Local, come over and say hello.

That is all

I hate it when parents pass on their hatreds to their children, so you get tiny tots spouting sectarian rubbish.

I believe that old firm games should be played behind closed doors, then maybe players and managers would stop playing to the gallery so often.

I am so tired of the hatreds

I saw a tiny tot in a pram today, decked head to toe in a celtic strip, dummy and all.

The day any of mine get an Old Firm strip they can pay for it themselves.

That's just football though - tonnes of babies round here in Sunderland attire.

"hate it when parents pass on their hatreds to children, so you get tiny tots spouting sectarian rubbish"

macdog, you have just hit the nail on the head there!! If the parents are spouting such crap, the kids probably have little idea that it is so wrong.

It is a vicious cycle, as these kids will go on to tell their kids about it and so on. for too long though there has been a 'tolerance' of it, probabaly more from the authorities i think, and i really think it wont be got rid of easily.

i have a friend who supports Rangers, and will not buy their son a strip simply because wearing it may get him into trouble-that to me is very sad.
For football and this nonsense to even be put together is just plain wrong imo-we should be using football (or any other sport for that matter) as a way to bring people together.