I am a self employed cleaner can I ask a few questions please?

[pieinthesky123]

I was made redundant almost two years ago not entitled to any benefits, couldn't find any job locally immediately and in desperation set up as a cleaner. I am declaring my income so not cash in hand and I am fully insured and crb checked etc and have excellent references.

I charge 9.50 per hour I work 52 weeks a year and I haven't missed a day for any reason on my part. My clients are mainly elderly and will often ring me 15 minutes before I am due to start work for them with a small shopping list. I always do this they pay me for the shopping but I never get reimbursed for my time or petrol etc. I am asked to pop parcels to the post office on my way home etc as it's two streets from where I live, or drop a prescription off at the pharmacy etc. I am naturally someone who is a helper where I can be but I feel used.

My clients all have adult children who live away from their parents and they rely on me as I am working for their parents weekly so they know someone is popping in regularly.

My problem is that I don't have a contract with my clients so if they book me for three hours of cleaning and then their daughter decides to pop over for the weekend my services are dispensed with as the daughter will do the work. I am told to have the week off but I don't get paid. There was a poor reaction when I mentioned having a few days off over Xmas but I haven't had a day off this year.

This week alone I have had my hours cancelled drastically due to family visiting and me not being needed. I can't afford to carry on.

Basically if you have a cleaner already what are your terms if you cancel them yourself say for instance your ill. If your parents have a cleaner and say you popped over to visit, did the cleaning and cancelled the cleaner what would the terms be then? Sometimes they leave the arrangements for the following week so loose as they are not sure how many hours of cleaning they need the following week so say they will ring me nearer the time If they need me. If I don't work, they don't pay me even if they cancel as I am leaving the house or even as I arrive at their house as they forgot to ring me to cancel. Two ladies I cleaned for who worked for the same company were made redundant but had notice themselves of this, but cancelled my services on the day I arrived so I lost two customers in a week without warning. One customer has no cleaning products in and in desperation I occasionally bring my own and don't charge for this. One lady has a naff hoover and I end up bringing my own and again don't charge, but clearly I should so what is reasonable?

I clearly know that I can't carry on like this and need to set out clear terms and conditions and possibly sort out a contract. What would you think is reasonable in terms of pay and conditions? What arrangements do you have with your cleaner, or perhaps a cleaner working for your elderly parents, or are you a cleaner yourself and what do you do? What is fair to ask and pay for? I am looking around for any other jobs in my local area but they offer 6.91 an hour and that's administration work in our local council offices. I am not entitled to any benefits if I closed down the business as I am self employed and my dh works but this job isn't giving me a regular living wage either.

Sorry for the epic long post and thanks if you made it to the end!! I want to work I need to work but it's so.difficult.

swerving yes if you pay Class 2 NIC then you can claim sickness and maternity benefits if necessary, after a lot of form filling though! It also counts towards your state pension, although if you have a Young child you would get credits anyway.

I'm another one who thinks you need to put things on a proper footing. I have had three self employed cleaners over the years, one of whom was happy to do additional errands. My first two cleaners rarely took holiday, my current one takes up to four weeks a year (including the bit between Xmas and NY) and have always given me at least a month's notice unless it has been an emergency. I have always continued to have them come when I am away as that is their opportunity to clean out the fridge, pull out the furniture (they move the sofa & things weekly but not bigger things like beds). If I am on holiday but at home then I try and be out when they are supposed to be here, limit myself to a room which I ask them not to clean or, if we have a house full of guests (for example, my cleaner is due to come on Xmas Eve this year when we have family over) have asked the cleaner if she can come at a different time than normal and, if not, will decide whether to have her come & perhaps do some ironing upstairs or something or just pay her & give her the afternoon off.
The one who was willing to errands was paid whatever it cost for the shopping or postage or whatever plus the relevant portion of her hourly rate. I didn't pay petrol as both of the places I asked her to go (small Sainsburys and post office) had to be driven past to get to our house.
The one who was willing to run errands was Muslin and almost cried one year when I asked her if she'd be able to come on Boxing Day which fell on her scheduled day and when we were going to be at the panto as so many people cancel on her over the Christmas period and don't pay her that she was thrilled to do it, especially as I then said that as it was a bank holiday I would expect to pay her double time.
As for cleaning materials and equipment, the cleaner uses some of mine & some of hers. I think she is supposed to provide all of her own but obviously I always have cleaning stuff in as I do my own bits of cleaning between her visits. She did start off bringing her own vacuum but, as I have the same model, uses mine as it saves carting hers in from the car.

Sorry for the late reply but I only just saw the new replies.

I have spoken to my customers and told them that I need to make some terms and conditions as I cannot budget without knowing my income and that I can't continue to work and not be paid in full. I said that I need notice of cancellation (24 hours) or full fees will apply. Alternatively I could rearrange the cleaning on another mutually convenient day - trying to show willing and cooperation with them in genuine cancellations.

I need paying for certain extra time. Nipping to the chemist on the way home in an emergency is an act of compassion and I won't change but an hour extra in Sainsburys plus petrol cannot be sustained. It's about mutual respect I suppose and common sense - exactly the same as you all show mutually in your cleaner and client relationship.

I was told that my class two contributions only pay my pension and that's it. I enquired in September as it was suggested I needed an operation with six weeks recovery time off work and as my work involves lifting furniture and hoovering etc then I couldn't work. I told my gp this information from the benefits agency and put the operation on hold. I pay about.13 pounds each month direct debit for my class two contributions.

I also had a word about not making visitors, the gardener and hairdresser cups of tea when I am cleaning. It's demeaning I feel like I am Mrs Overall.

I said that I wont be cleaning out the plant pots in the shed when the gardener asks me to. I also said that I will not be summoned by the mobile hairdresser to clear up the conservatory floor after they have had their hair cut by her. Again it's demeaning and as my own boss I will decide what duties I complete within the reasonable scope of a domestic cleaner. Sweeping up hair and scrubbing out plant pots while the hairdresser and gardener chat and drink tea and watch me are unacceptable!!!

I need to be clear and assertive with my clients about what I will do, but remain compassionate and good value for money.
At least from your helpful feedback I know what is generally ok and what's not with a client and cleaner relationship.

Thank you all again for taking the time to read my post and offer your suggestions, advice and give me the confidence to know that this isn't reasonable to put up with.

We have a cleaner. We pay monthly by DD and that is the same every month whether we're away or she is or no one is iyswim.

www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/367561/dwp015.pdf

This tells you all you need to know about claiming sick pay when self employed. It isnt easy and it doesnt pay much, but you are entitled to it if you qualify.

Contribution-based Employment and Support Allowance
You may be entitled to claim contribution-based Employment and Support Allowance if you have paid enough National Insurance Contributions.

Income-related Employment and Support Allowance
You may be entitled to claim income-related Employment and Support Allowance if you do not have enough money coming in, or you have not paid enough National Insurance Contributions, and you satisfy the entitlement conditions. This means that you have savings of less than £16,000 and, if you have a partner or civil partner, they work for less than 24 hours a week on average.

It may be that you do not qualify for the first if you haven't paid enough, and dont qualify for the second because your H works more than 24 hours per week. You must also have paid them for a certain period of time.

*Contributory Employment and Support Allowance and national insurance contributions

The first contribution condition for contributory Employment and Support Allowance (ESA) is that you must have actually paid enough Class 1 or 2 national insurance contributions in at least one of the last two complete tax years before the year in which you claim. However, you may be able to satisfy this condition with contributions paid in any tax year in some circumstances - for example, because you were getting Carer’s Allowance or Incapacity Benefit, or if you were getting Working Tax Credit with a disability element before you became incapable of work.

The second condition is that you must either have paid or been credited with enough contributions for the last two complete tax years before the year you claim. However, credited contributions will not always count towards this condition.

The contribution conditions for ESA, and when they can be relaxed because of your circumstances, are complicated, so you may want to get advice. If you do not meet the contribution conditions for contributory ESA, you may still qualify for income-related ESA if your income and capital are low enough.*

I think you have a good opportunity now to renegotiate your contracts. Good cleaners like yourself are absolute gold and I doubt anyone would get rid of you just because you want to be treated fairly.

Write down what you think is fair with regard to doing shopping and errands. If they do not wish to pay you a few pounds extra for this then you should refuse to do it. Although I pay holiday pay for my cleaner, I know this is rare However if they cancel you for any reason you can expect to be paid.

As a self employed person I think it will be worth while investing a correctly worded contract. If you sit down with each of your clients and explain, just as you have done here, I doubt any of them will object. Good luck. Please let us know how youngest on.

Thanks Skye for the information it's very helpful of you!!!

I was originally told that due to my dh earnings being over the threshold I didn't qualify. During the last year of my employment before I was made redundant, I cut down my hours at work for four months to care for a relative and as soon as possible I returned to work full time. As a result of this, there wasn't enough contributions made in the last two years that count towards your entitlement to any benefits. Having been really lucky to have always been in full time employment and as my state pension statement shows 27 full years of contributions, I just presumed that based on these years of contributions I would be entitled to unemployment or sick benefits. I didn't realise that they only look at the last two years and regardless of your 'mitigating' circumstances etc. So in desperation I set up as a cleaner hoping for it to be temporary until something better came along.

I am going to carefully read the information that you very kindly sent and see if I do qualify for sick pay, I did look at private policies for self employed covering loss of earnings etc, but the cost was quite expensive for my level of earnings and it won't cover preexisting conditions

Thanks for the information it's much easier having something to read than be transferred to various departments being given a variety of different answers by the benefits agency when you ask about sick pay.

Thanks again everyone!!

Thank you florentina too and for your nice comments in your first paragraph I know some of my clients have had bad experiences with cleaners before me so I hope that they know I am different.

I will post at some point to update you with how things are going.

Once again thank you all its so nice of you to read the post as it was epic but the replies were all very helpful and supportive.

It's just a thought op, but when you listed what you did for your elderly customers, food shopping, errands etc it seems to me that you are missing a trick and could think about marketing yourself as more of a 'cleaner & general helper' - sorry I cant think of a good term. I think there is a big gap in the market for elderly people who can manage to live by themselves but need the odd errand doing. There are lots of elderly people whose families live too far away to help with day to day errands. I know that my family struggled to find someone to help my mum and would happily have paid £10 an hour for a nice reliable person.

I agree about needing contracts. I think in future, you should get 2 weeks notice of cancellations.

With regards to any errands, I would ensure they are done as part of your contracted hours. To get around it now, I would make out you have an earlier customer and a later customer, so if they want any errands they have to be done in their contracted hours and you do whatever cleaning you can in the time you have left.

Not just elderly people - when my DCs were very small I would happily have paid my cleaner extra to take parcels, pick up a loaf of bread or whatever.

My cleaner is good, we have a similar system to a lot on this thread. When we go on holiday I always get her to come even though we're away, coming back to a clean house is the best!

Get yourself a contract, and a flyer to stick through doors offering whatever service you want to provide.

I am at the gardener and hairdresser getting you skivvy for them!

Pieinthesky, I have been reading these threads with interest. Those who have advised you to rebrand yourself have it absolutely right. It is such a worry having elderly relatives and having someone to,come in to do cleaning, run errands and maybe a little bit of caring is such a relief. The cleaner who helps one of my relatives spends half her time chatting to him over tea and cake and this is just as valuable as the cleaning. Apart from me and the carers she is the only person he sees. You have so much going for you, experience, references, the necessary checks, and a very kind heart. I wish you lived in East London. How about, 'HEART OF GOLD! Cleaner and companion to the elderly?

I have a cleaner who charges me £10 p/h
She doesn't charge me for her holidays because she's self employed
I think you need to charge more and if you've jobs to do for them then finish cleaning a bit earlier so it's coming out of the paid time not your free time.
As for the family doing it, that's a sticky one. I think they are out of order but I don't think you'd get anywhere with still charging them
You can do a contract and say that cancellation with less than 48 hours notice will invoke a charge but I don't know if that would lose you customers.

I would put your rates up and say it's because of all the cancellations and free work that you're doing.

Forgot to say, she provides her own cleaning products but uses my vac.
She still comes if we are on holiday as she has a key.

It's funny that you mentioned rebranding as a general helper. When I explained to my gp about not being able to have the operation etc due to work, he asked what work I did. I faffed a bit saying it started off with cleaning but merged into all sorts of help. He said so, your a home help then. He even said that if I needed or was interested in taking on more clients he could offer to put me in touch with as many as I wanted via the surgery. Not sure if I would need to meet criteria to be a home help, but I can certainly find out.

I will have a Google and see if there is a certain criteria for home helps, which covers all age groups young families to the elderly, like you suggested.

I did see a leaflet in the gp waiting room from someone like age concern and thought, almost jokingly to myself, that's more like what I do. They charged around 14 per hour. So at 9.50 an hour, soon to be ten pounds, I am super cheap in comparison. I noticed that even they warned of a cancellation fee that could be charged for late cancellation but it was nicely worded. More like don't forget should you need to cancel at any time we don't charge provided we are given 24 hours notice, that sort of thing.

I will investigate further as there does seem to be a gap in the market certainly in my area.

Thanks for the very helpful information and planting the seeds of thought it's much appreciated. Two weeks ago I was getting so worried about my situation and thanks to all of you for the advice etc two weeks later I feel a lot more positive. I will update at some point on how things are going.

Oh and I love the suggestion of heart of gold by the way!!

I had similar cavalier attitude to cancels when i tutored. After that any initial new client had to be informed of cancellation fee of half the money if less than a weeks notice given.

You should charge for doing shopping. I'd say 6 per hour to cover time & petrol. Skyeskye is lovely offering you help!

Any existing clients who have previously messed you are around and dont like new rules arent worth having to be honest. Sounds like time to get firm and get new ones: Get some cards (lots of 5 for a 100 deals if you google at moment.) Get advertising locally on Gumtree and local newsagents.

Dog (or cat) sitters and walkers are always needed too btw.