When do you tell people?

[Butterpie]

So, we're decided on HE, we have told family and close friends, but how do you decide when/if to tell people in general?

EG, today we were playing in front of the house and a neighbour came over for a chat. She asked when DD1 was starting nursery, I just said "oh, she's not doing that, haha" in the hope that the conversation would move on, but she started telling me all the local nurseries that have places, so I said we had decided not to do nursery, then "oh, but you have to send her so she gets into a good school", so I just went for it, big grin "We're going to home educate!"

The lady was very positive actually, curious as to if it is legal, if we need to be qualified, if she needs to do SATs, etc.

I'm not always going to have the time/inclination for a full explanation though, plus I don't want DD1 to cotton on quite yet how unusual "staying with mummy and learning and playing when we want to" really is.

Any tips?

'The way you put things and the way you respond will dictate the way the conversation goes'. NO, IT DOESN'T! And it just goes to show how much you know about human nature.
I know when someone is being a busybody or not, and I know when someone is genuinely interested in what I am doing, or not.
I'm not anyone's doormat, but neither am I condescending or arrogant, as anyone whow knows me will tell you.
And, furthermore, you couldn't do what I do in my daily life in a million years, but I could probably do what you do with my eyes shut and my hands tied behind my back!
We home educators have enough crap to put up with, with the attitude of some, so we can definitely do without the likes of you pontificating all over the place.
You have been digging at posters since you started postng.
I think we've all had enough of you.

Marjorie - please don't speak for others.

This is a public forum and piscesmoon has experience of HE even though she doesn't do it herself. Even if she didn't, she could still express her views. You don't have to agree with them, but it's not a question of her not having the right to come in here and comment, particularly on a thread where the OP is asking about how/when/if to talk to non-HErs about the subject.

She's not saying anything that terrible - only that the manner in which you approach the conversation will have an impact. If you want to say in response "Yes, but sometimes the other person is rude however I handle it" then yes that's something where your personal experience means you know something she doesn't. But that doesn't mean her general point is invalid.

And FWIW, I also find some of the HErs who post on here can be very defensive and antagonistic at times.

Thank you AMumInScotland.

I have 3 nephews who have been HE for the last 13yrs or so. My mother was HEed for a year as a DC. I know several families who HE. I am just friendly, I don't comment, in the same way that I wouldn't comment if they went to school-unless they started to tell me how much better it was than my choices for my DCs and then I would give them the other side. They haven't, so we get on very amicably.

Even if I had no knowledge at all I am perfectly free to comment. I know nothing about keeping hens, but if I commented on that board I don't expect anyone would tell me to go away!

You will have have a problem if you don't accept that your attitude determines the response you get.

For example- imagine 2 HE families move into my street. I go over to welcome them in. I go to Mrs Smith first and she gives me a cup of tea and I meet the DCs . She tells me they HE and how they have been doing it for the last 4 yrs and they love it as a life style and the DCs have blossomed. I chat to them all about it and tell them that my nephews have spent most of their schools years at home and it has worked out very well-they say the DCs are into gardening so I offer them some spare plants. I then go to Mrs Brown, she doesn't invite me in. I ask if she has any DCs as another new family with DCs have moved in. She says that hers are HEed and are staying that way-I say brightly 'Oh have you been doing that long?'and she says 'what's it to you?-they are fine they are perfectly sociable thank you and the school down the road is dire'. I then point out that mine all went to the school down the road, it is actually very good and they not only did well there but were happy. She says 'Bully for you' and shuts the door!
Mrs Brown then meets Mrs Smith and says 'that's a right cow at number 6!' and Mrs Smith says in surprise 'you mean Pisces, I thought she was a lovely lady'.

I wouldn't then expect Mrs Smith to get all huffy because I don't treat them the same! e.g. I always have a smile and a chat to Mrs Smith and I stick to 'Good morning with Mrs Brown'. I am human, I make judgements. My judgement is that Mrs Smith's DCs are much better off. I may be totally wrong in this, but Mrs Brown is doing nothing to dispel it.

I think that you are just as guilty of making assumptions Marjoriew-you have absolutely no idea of my life-I have had more than my fair share of tragedy, which I am not prepared to list on here, but I can assure you that it has not all been a bed of roses! You would also be surprised at what I can, and do handle.

I'm sorry that I named them. I would never name those that I disagree with, but I didn't see any harm in naming those who I believed wouldn't have a problem with antagonistic questioners. I accept that I was wrong-sorry. I will stick to saying 'I agree with so and so' as a separate thing.

Oh poor Butterpie! I'm starting to think you're cursed on the HE board on here! Your threads always seem to end up with everyone bickering at the end of it, even when your OP is totally innocent and non-contraversial! I hope you don't end up getting put off posting on this topic as, personally, I love it on here (apart from the rows).

Pisces - glad you apologised for your naughty and nice list - that was a poor judgement on your part.

Having said that, I do agree with what you're saying about how people are, but I have to say I haven't noticed that on here much...and if I did, like you say, there are ways and ways of doing things, of changing attitudes and opinions, and you have to see that your approach does often just gets peoples' backs up so doesn't have the result you want. I think you're essentially right in what you're saying about how HEors talk about what they do without sounding defensive and stroppy, but your message gets clouded with what appears to be a lot of judgementalness from you.

Just to throw another spanner in the works, I am also starting to think, with great sadness, that there is a bit too much 'old boys club' about the HE community sometimes. A kind of 'well he/she HEs so he/she can't be doing a bad job' as if the very act of HEing stops you having to also be a good parent. NOt sure if I'm explaining myself here, and I want to clarify that I'm not talking about anyone on here, or anyone in particular.

I don't think the suggested HE regulations are necessary - there is already plenty of legislation in place to protect children in danger - but I do think that there are some HEors out there who are doing a shit job and who automatically get the HE community rushing to protect them from the evil PTB without them even questioning if mayb the PTB could be right.

Have I thrown a cat among the pigeons here? It is something that is really starting to bother me though .

I dare say that I shouldn't reply, but I can't resist because it is a point that I have made before. Lots of people want to teach but, however well meaning and keen, some of them are useless and they are (hopefully) weeded out. The attitude is that if a parent wants to do it that is enough and any parent can do it.
I know, as does everyone, that schools range from the excellent to the should be closed down tomorrow but you are not allowed to suggest that parents who HE follow the same range from excellent to dire because the whole community of HEer arises to protect and say 'how dare you say that some are better than others?'.
My SIL had a visit from the LEA last week, she was a bit worried as it was supposed that DS3 would take some exams and DS3 has decided that he isn't. As it turned out they had a nice chat and there was no pressure-he isn't doing them. The inspector was saying that the numbers have gone up. When she started there were very few HEers but he waved several A4 pages of a list in front of her-it had gone up enormously. His worry was that most of them were names, he didn't know them and he wasn't going to get to know them-because they refuse visits. I dare say that most of them were fine, but if there were only 2 families on there that are not, they are being hidden and protected by the others. I have suggested before that the HE community should be open for the common good and I don't see the need for secrecy-but I need a thick skin, or a tin hat for that one.

Many HEers are defensive and secretive and expect to meet friendliness and understanding in return. I think they have more chance of this if they are open and friendly in the first place.If they know they are doing a good job and it is better for their DC than school why be so frightened of telling authority that that is what you are doing?

I should have said -telling and showing.

It's not about being frightened to tell authority, though, Pisces. It's about maintaining your family's right to privacy. It's about not being guilty until proven innocent. It's pretty damn difficult to completely hide children. No cases of child abuse have ever happened that would have been saved by the family's registering to home educate. Do you really think that families who are going to abuse their children are going to bother registering?

Having said that, you dont' have to refuse home visits in an antagonistic way. I would refuse an inspection - it's an horrific invasion of my children's privacy and their right to live their lives without the state making it clear that they don't trust their parents. However, I would definitely be finding a polite, and friendly way of saying so, and offering other ways to 'prove my innocence' if they could show me that they had reasonable reason for needing me to do so. Likewise, if they have just cause for coming into our home, I would let them - but there are already laws in place for that.

I don't see how protecting your children's right to privacy is antagonistic. Being rude is, yes, but you don't have to be rude to refuse to be inspected and treated as if we're guilty until proven innocent.

pisces - I think the biggest problem with having an open discussion with the authorities is mainly from families who have already been very badly let down by those same authorities. They are not starting from a "clean slate". They may have children who have been bullied, and the authorities have refused to deal with it, blamed the victim, threatened the parents, suggested dragging them into school in their pyjamas if they refuse to go, etc. The authorities have therefore been part of the problem, rather than part of the solution.

When the parent finds out about HE and decides to go for it, they are not going to think of the LEA as a nice bunch of people who will be open and positive about their choice - they already have experience which says that's not the case. So they are going to be defensive, with good reason.

If LEAs never behaved that way, then many more HE families would be happy to talk about how they could have a useful and beneficial relationship with the LEA, and it might be possible to have some kind of registration scheme which was acceptable to all.

I do agree that the default "How dare anyone suggest that any HE family could be failing their child?!" response is a bit "head in the sand", and adds to the difficulty in discussing the issue openly.

It is the way of doing it MrsWobble-people speak to this particular inspector through the letter box-what sort of message is that to DCs? That it is acceptable to talk shout at people through the letter box? The particular inspector is lovely-very kind and very helpful and has put himself out to give SIL contacts. He worries about the DCs he doesn't see and it must be horrible to be seen as 'the enemy' when he is just trying to do his job and they don't know him.

You will all be really pleased to know that I have resolved to stay off HE threads for ever! I go over the same ground and it is all a bit pointless-not to say a waste of time when I should be doing other things.

To answer Butterpie-I think it is great that you are enthusiastic-but if you go announcing things you will get exactly the response that you got when you started something similar on AIBU (maybe a bit better as those threads ask for trouble). When my DS1 was 3yrs I hadn't even thought of education, other than I vaguely knew that the local school had a good reputation. When I got around to looking at it I didn't like it, or the Head at all. It wasn't quite 'over my dead body' reaction but he wasn't going there. DS had come with me and as he sat down on the pavement as we came out and had a massive tantrum I surmised that he had the same view! I then decided that there was no point even looking at oversubscribed schools out of catchment. I went to the next school along and although I wasn't keen on some aspects I thought that the infant teacher was superb and as he would have her for 3 yrs that was important (small 3 class school)and I would worry about the rest later. As luck would have it a new Head came along. We then moved and that time,being more clued up, the school came before the house (large junior school with a very mixed catchment area).
If I hadn't found the nice infant teacher I would have HEed, so I am not against it by any means. If I had HEed I make judgements, I won't mention names again, but if I were to do it I would come on here and ask one particular person, who has a vast knowledge of contacts etc and I can tell that her DCs are as I would wish mine to turn out.

I would only be doing it because I thought it was better so I wouldn't have a problem with having a visit from the LEA.I would tell the LEA why it was better.

to quote ''The way you put things and the way you respond will dictate the way the conversation goes'. NO, IT DOESN'T! And it just goes to show how much you know about human nature. '

I disagree with this entirely. Human nature makes people respond in kind. At a basic level, when I had student jobs in shops etc if the customer was polite I bent over backward to be helpful-above and beyond the call of duty. If they were rude I had to be polite back, but they certainly didn't get any help beyond the bare minimum called for.
If you are hostile and defensive you can't expect sweetness and light back. If you smile at someone and they never smile back-eventually you give up smiling.
I still think that friendliness and a sense of humour and a readiness to answer questions (however tedious) or finding a pleasant way of deflecting questions would make your life much easier.If you persist in thinking that your attitude has no bearing on other people, then you will have problems.

I have nothing at all against HE- and if it stuck to the positive about HE I wouldn't even bother to comment. It is only when you get comments about schools- as in 'schools put DCs off learning for life' that I feel urged to say 'no they don't -not all by any means-many DCs are inspired and motived by school'. If you are HEing I can't see any need to mention schools.
I also dislike the assumption that people who send their DCs to school are somehow a worse parent and they haven't thought it out or they are happy to have clones etc etc.

We are all different-one size doesn't fit all-and thankfully it never will.

OVER AND OUT! Hurray you all say

It is also complicated by the fact that if you have an LA that is a bit keen on inspections and registration, then you may well feel a bit concerned about their motives.

Our LA, for example, are very good at sticking to the law, and are very quick to let new HEors know that they don't have to register, or accept home visits, if they don't want them. They are also very understanding of autonomous learning. I wouldn't actually mind our local LA visiting us, if I had instigated it, but they won't ask, because they know that it is not actually within their remit to do so.

I would be more wary of an LA who kept on at me to let them inspect me and my family.

"people speak to this particular inspector through the letter box"

How has the situation arisen that an inspector is at the door? Had the inspector made an appointment or just turned up unexpectedly? What is he doing there?

"when he is just trying to do his job "

Unless concerns about the children's education have been brought to the LA attention then it isn't part of his job to check up on the family.

I think it is certainly the right message to give children that you should speak to people through the letterbox and refuse to let them in when they turn up on your doorstep claiming they have the authority to come in. I wouldn't be comfortable leaving my children home alone if I thought they were easily "taken in" by strangers who want to come into the house. Insisting that people ring or write instead is quite appropriate. It's good to show children how to send away unwelcome callers.

...Assuming this person hadn't made an appointment beforehand. If he had, it would be a bit odd to refuse to let him in, but people are entitled to change their minds, and some do - especially if parents originally agreed to allow a visit only because the LA told them it was a legal requirement, and the parents later learned that wasn't the case. My LA does exactly this, claiming (very politely) that the law obliges parents to accept routine home visits. Almost everyone here who has had visits have found the LA staff pleasant and friendly. But being pleasant doesn't make it right for them to misrepresent the law in order to gain entry, or to turn up unannounced on people's doorsteps assuming they'll be allowed in.

MrsvWoolf, you need to spend time on some HE email lists! I'm afraid that EHE officers and EWOs do do doorstepping in some LAs, sadly, despite it being ultra vires practice.

In fact, on this MN topic just recently an new HEor was doorstepped, and she dealt with it brilliantly. Not everyone would have been able to do that and would have felt like they had to invite that person in because they are 'authority' so should be obeyed . See 'Is home ed for us?':

"By noodle6 Tue 15-Jun-10 18:07:32
!!
Got an EWO calling on my doorstep today. I refused him entry, absolutely refused him. So we just spoke via intercom (as I live in a flat). First he said the school had concerns about my decision to home ed, and would it be possible then to meet him in school? I said I am not going along to such a meeting. Put it in writing if you have something to say to me. Then he said "The thing is, what I have to say to you is quite difficult to put in writing." and then asked if he could ring me instead, and then asked for clarification of my home number. I asked him incredulously "Are you gonna ring me right now?" Then he said "Yeah, er, blah blah blah (at that point I was so annoyed I couldn't remember what else he said in reply)... But in response I said to him that I've had enough talks with the school, I feel home-ed is the best thing for my daughter, and that I've made my decision and am not changing my mind. I also added that as of yesterday my daughter was to be deregistered, and if I put in such a request the school has to comply. It is completely within my rights to ask for my child to be deregistered from school in order to home educate her. Then I repeated that if he has anything to say, he must put everything in writing and then we'll go from there.

With that he said okay and left.

Phew!! What was that all about?! "

In many areas, EWOs deal with EHE and truancy. This is one of the many things that make it difficult to know how to deal with an aooficial that turns up on the doorstep.

I was extremely fed up when I deregged my 10yo after one term and I was doorstepped the following week. I fetl seriously aggrieved, kept her on the doorstep (in Jan!) until she accepted she had no right to be there and then only let her see the DCs after an hour - and sent her off with my copy of School Is Not Compulsory because she had no idea of the law or how it differed from the LA's procedures.

I objected to what she did on principle- not everyone would have been as confident and sure of what they were doing as me. If I had been deregging a 10yo for the first time, I might have been veryvulnerable and there is no call to turn up without an appointment.