Grandparents and home education-what do you do when they just don't get it, but you actually rather like them and want them to?

[Fillyjonk]

PILs just do not understand what we are doing. They don't see the value at all of autonomous education.

I have tried all the obvious stuff

Basically, they like to see results. ATM, they feel that we really should be doing worksheets etc-but more than that, they seem to feel that even making stuff using paper would be better than them spending a few hours playing little house on the prairie.

They also seem to have great problems getting their heads around the fact that there are certain things kids seems to do in school that we just don't. Quite trivial stuff, like there is a lot of consternation over my kids not doing junk modelling or making cards using foam. They do do am awful lot of crafts, just that because I went to a steiner kindergarten myself, we do more knitting, sewing, weaving, flower pressed cards etc (god that all sounds so petty and silly writing it down but thats what I was cornered over last night).

It is not even so much that they disaprove, though tbh they do. But they are trying, and so am I. It is that they honestly seem not to understand. They seem honestly to equate learning with being taught (honestly, with my kids, just because I-or ANYONE-teaches them there is absolutely no guarentee that it is going in).

They also seem to feel that kids need to be "occupied" quite a lot doing something, even if that is something that, tbh, seems pretty much like busywork. Whereas I feel that kids do need quite a lot of downtime to process stuff and decide what they need to know next.

I know I could just say "you know what, they are our kids so bog off" but I don't want to do that. I want them to feel included and involved, for their sakes, but I just don't know why they can't seem to understand at ALL what we are doing, or that there could even be a remote possibility that it could work.

I am also quite happy to be flexible. They keep trying to get ds to do faintly disguised worksheets, numeracy activities, sound words out for them, etc. Ds doesn't mind doing this stuff and so I don't say anything-though I am strongly of the autonomous stance, I don't think a few worksheets every few weeks are actually going to kill his love of learning.

The odd thing is as well that for our chidlren this approach seems to work rather well, certainly in terms of reading and numeracy and general knowledge.

I suppose I am trying to work out what their problem actually IS, and why they utterly, utterly can't get what we are doing.

This hasn't bee sprung on them at all, they knew that we planned to HE since ds was born 5 years ago. We've offered them carefully screened books (including Alan Thomas' latest!). They are retired teachers, and guardianistas, and not daft at all.

FWIW my style is pretty autonomous, though with a lot of "strewing". In a few cases, where they make a decision that they really want to do something, I will do what I can to keep them on target for that, but this is in a very consensual way, IYKWIM.

I am sorry this is a looong ramble, my thoughts are a bit all over the place. And it might be a bit full of jargon. Oh I don't know. Just any thoughts, really. I do value them a lot as people and grandparents and I really, more than anything, don't want them to feel left out. We are not on the brink of WW3 chex Filly but I would really like to just bridge this gap a little.

ooooh thank you

Actually I could do with a little LESS playing with cardboard boxes atm anyway, for various reasons, so I think I'll give it a go.

Oh another question-do you have to pay per child?

Hi,
I have a tell-a-friend code for education city if anyone wants to use it, it's

E827EE3G

Yeah, unfortunately you sign up for each child as they'll have different stages to access according to NC level/age appropriateness of the work.
You can use a tell-a-friend code as Runnerbean says which gives you and the code holder 3 months free subscription too.

Mine is H225CB6D.

The code is SCHOOL and gives you £10 off, so a years subscription is £19.99, instead of £29.99, but it's being worth twice that to us most days

Try the free trial for 10 days, see what you think, then use the codes to sign up for 15 months for £19.99. A bargain!

Don't even try to get them to understand! I would just agree to disagree and not discuss it further.
I think people know, if they post regularly, that I LOVED school with a passion when little so nothing will persuade me that HE children are not missing out.(I still love school-I am looking forward to going in tomorrow).
However, if ever my DSs decide to do it with grandchildren (if I ever get any), I will keep quiet and not interfere. I will only do that by not discussing it,if they try telling me their theories I won't be able to keep quiet!
I would just tell them it is not a subject for discussion and get on with it.

If grandparents, friends or any other relatives said to me

"nothing will persuade me that HE children are not missing out"

I would treat it with exactly the same amount of respect as, supposing I was gay (just for argument's sake), I would treat a comment by that same person of "nothing will persuade me that children in a two-mothers setup are not missing out by not having a father"

There's just no basis for further discussion with such a person, really

I can't see why that is sad! Lots of people do all sorts of things without full agreement from everyone. They can respect your choices but it doesn't mean they have to hold the same beliefs-or be 'converted'.
I believe that DCs with 2 mothers are missing out (having been a widow I know how important a father is to a DC)-HOWEVER I wouldn't say so to the couple or the DC and I would be perfectly happy to be friends. The same if my DSs wanted to HE my grandchildren(after the initial reaction) I would keep quiet and be a normal grandmother and not mention it to adults or children. I would expect my DSs to respect my opinion and not bully me into saying I thought it was wonderful. The world would be utterly boring if we all had to think the same!

thanks for codes. Am going to give education city a go. I was thinking of it anyway. Actually GP are rather of the persuasion that computers are a little suspect si it won't help much there-as far as they are concerned he will now be spending all day in front of the computer (aka 30 minutes on educationcity ) but still.

Yeah, its a tricky one, isn't it? I just don't want to make a big part of the kids' lives inaccessible to their beloved gps. I do not care even slightly about their approval-I lost that, ooooh , loooong ago when I booked for my first hb...but I don't want to get to the stage of "well tough, that is what we are doing." . They seem to be trying to understand and I want to recognise that but honestly, they seem to be utterly, utterly incapable of concieving what we are up to.

re the no fathers thing, oh, I know several very functional families with 2 mothers. Had my life gone slightly differently I might well have ended up parenting in one myself.

In many ways, I think families with only one mummy are missing out. Really, I do. .

It may be functional but it is not ideal. Having actually done the single parent bit with a small DC who desperately wants a man about the house it is very sad. However you have to respect people's choices.

My PIL have always been wonderful and support me, however odd they think my choices-so I shall do likewise. They have been a good role model.

I shall just be the slightly eccentric Grandma-I have had my turn and done things my way so my DCs will have to bring up their DCs their way (they probably won't have any!)
As long as they just get on with it, I will be quite happy and keep quiet-there will only be a problem if they expect me to think it is wonderful if it isn't IMO!

My advice is just agree to differ with grandparents-smile and change the subject.After a while they give up! (it worked for me anyway).

Do you know, I gave the example of a gay family as one which (so I thought) anyone under the age of 60 would immediately say "God, that's outrageous. Of course a 2-mother family is completely morally equivalent to a conventional one-of-each family. Yes the experience is different but they are not missing out, they are just having an alternative but equally valuable experience"

[wandering off shaking head in disbelief emoticon]

It is different and perfectly acceptable onwardandoutward and I have no problem at all with people's life choice, and before being a widow I would probably have agreed.

However-having had a fatherless DS (who never knew his father because he was too young) I can tell you that he thought he was missing out! He wanted a man-he thought anyone's father was wonderful.
I am sorry if it offends you onwardandupward-but you trying telling a 3 yr old on Christmas Eve, when he tells you that all he wants for Christmas is a daddy, that he is not missing out and alternatives are equally valuable experiences! You try telling a crying 5yr old, watching a 'normal' married couple with 2 children that alternatives are fine!
Equally try telling a 2yr old that you can't find a daddy and baby sister in the supermarket!

Unless you have actually dealt with a child who is absolutely desperate for a father you can't possibly know that 2 mothers are equally fine!

Maybe other DCs don't feel they are missing out-but I can assure you that my DC felt that he was missing out and he didn't think he was having an equally valuable experience.

It may not be PC but children don't think in PC ways.

Two parents is certainly preferable to one, in the abstract (the reality of an abusive alchoholic father, say, might mean that a particular child is considerably better off emotionally and physically with, to all practical purposes, just the one parent rather than the two which are on offer biologically).

But in the comparison between a straight couple and a gay couple, I don't think it's valid to claim that mother+father is somehow better than mother+mother or father+father. Rather than you claiming that mother+father is the best possibility, I might just as well say that a child in a mother+father family unit is missing out on the rich experience of being a child of a lesbian couple. A way of life which has been positive for one particular person (i.e. you) is not necessarily the optimum for everyone, and that applies to family demographic, educational decisions, child rearing practices, the choice of breast or bottle, whether to read the Times or the Guardian - there are an awful lot of things where two or more alternatives are equally valuable but in different ways.

I'm really pretty close to sending a link to this conversation to some of my home educating gay friends, because I'm sure they'd be better at expressing themselves on the subject than I am on their behalf! (If primary school teachers often share your views about optimum family set up, I get less and less surprised at regularly encountering gay couples in HE circles...)

Of course children not going to school are missing out on some of the good school things, but children who do go to school are missing out on loads of things that HE'd children get the chance to have. It's about parents deciding which things are worth missing out on and which aren't. Children who don't have a dad miss out on a male presence (which might not be such a bad thing thinking of some dads!), but children who don't have two mums miss out on the good things that come with having two mums. We can't all experience everything and assuming that one way is better than another is far too simplistic.

My children would be better on in school if I beat them regularly, or hated being with them and told them to shut up everytime they asked me a question. They're better off out of school because of the benefits I can give them at home as a loving mother who enjoys being a part of their lives. Yes, being HE'd, they miss out on some of the good things about school (I liked school) but they also miss out on the crap stuff - being bullied, not being with people who love you, not being respected. If they were at school, they would miss out on far more - visiting places when they're not crowded, tackling subjects when they're important to you, asking questions when they're relevant, being and feeling respected and loved and safe and secure the whole time.

I had no dad around when I was younger and missed out on having a man around, but if he had been around, I would have missed out on all the wonderful times my brother and I spent with our mum because of her being single. Oh, and we missed out on watching them argue and him hit her.......

So, AbbeyA, saying "nothing will persuade me that HE children are not missing out" is short sighted, over simplistic and ridiculous. Of course HE children are missing out on something but, IMO, schooled children miss out on far more (unless their parents don't like them etc.). If you came and saw our family, or the families of many other HEors, you'd see that. There is no way on this earth that a school could provide my children with the sort of rich, secure environment that I can and do so they miss out on very little that can be good about school, really!

What is it you feel HEd children do miss out on? being bullied? Being forced to sit and listen to something you're not interested in? Feeling humiliated if you get a question wrong in front of everyone? Feeling smug if you get it right in front of everyone? You can't have children at the top of the class without having children at the bottom who feel shit and hate their school life. glad you loved school so much, but I wonder who in your classes hated it as a result.

yeah even aside from everything else, a child growing up in a 2-mother household is NOT growing up in a single parent household.

I don't know where to start with this one, really. Do you KNOW any 2 mother/father households? In all the mundane ways but a few they are pretty identical to mother/father households, ime.

It is a little different, not inferior. By not living near the sea, my kids certainly miss out a little but they gain in living near the park and culture stuff.

(incidentally, I've NEVER heard such a heterosexist attitude expressed in HE circles. Never. Am a bit really)

And there's a big difference between a child with parents who are separated but both involved to a child with an absent father or widowed mother (or vice versa if they live with their dad).

And what about someone like me? I'm a single mum but my DD has 2 uncles and a Nana here at home; so she's getting experiences that other children are missing out on as well as missing out on having her dad at home.

I have been thinking of leaving Mumsnet for some time and am finally going to do it. I have found this thread deeply distressing. I have been told that someone under 60 can?t possibly think a mother and father is better for a DC than 2 mothers and they are shocked by my heterosexist attitude. I have nothing against same sex couples bringing up DCs but I think the ideal is to have a role model from each sex living with them.

The reason that I have found it so distressing is that I know my DS wanted a father.
A 3 yr old should not be lying in bed on Christmas Eve saying that all he wants for Christmas is a daddy, I can still cry when I think about it. He had a mother, 2 grandmothers, an aunt and a female family friend who were very close, he didn?t want or need a second mother. What he wanted was a father.
I had 6 years of him telling me this while I gave him all the advantages of being an only child with a single parent. I told him that he wasn?t missing out and he was having a valuable, alternative experience (or words to that effect) but he wasn?t impressed, to his mind he was missing out and he most certainly didn?t think he was having an ?equally valuable experience?. I respected his view. Children under 5yrs have no idea of PC views but they know what they want, call me whatever you like but my DS wanted a father.

I always have problems on this thread. I came on with a very mild view, which was that if your parents disagree you shouldn't, try to convert them, a lost cause in many cases, but agree to disagree and don?t discuss it further.
I find it strange that you disagree with your parents but expect your DCs to agree with you in the future-but time will tell on that one.

I find the view that ?you can?t have children at the top of the class without children at the bottom who feel utter shit and hate their school life? utter claptrap!! All I can say lindenlass is that sadly you had a very poor school experience, and as you believe that, I can see why you HE.

I have had one or two arguments with people on other topics but it always gets unpleasant on HE topic threads. I think some of you are great and I can tell from your posts that HE in your house gives your DCs a great start in life. Julienoshoes shines out as a wonderful example of HE at its best. (There are others, I just can?t recall your names without looking them up). I have changed my mind on one or two things, especially from reading Julienoshoes who has been kind, polite and patient, even when finding me exasperating.

However I find a lot of posters narrow minded, rigid and unpleasantly defensive.

I am now losing my bookmark for the site; the only way not to respond is not to read anything further. Therefore you can all ,, and and think yourselves well rid of me!

I'm sorry you feel like that AbbeyA.

I personally do find it hard to keep justifying or read others justifying decisions to HE, on what I thought was a board to support each other in our choice to educate otherwise. I can't tell you the joy I felt (sad I know) when I discovered there was a HE section to MN when we were considering it

I admit I find posts from those working in schools incredibly frustrating when they don't offer any advice, but post to say that 'schools offer just the same', but that's probably just me.
Personally, I wouldn't dream of repeatedly going to the education/primary section and advocating HE. It's no longer relevant to me so I stay away. By the same token I don't go to many sections of the talk boards.

I honestly have no truck with school and readily admit that some schools are vastly different to when I was there. BUT it isn't right for my children at this moment in time, for whatever reason and I choose to exercise my right to educate my children at home.

We do seem to go round in circles on this topic, agreeing to disagree, but then always ending up back at the same point, HE vs School, which is not why I come to the board at all.

Perhaps in my naivety I thought there would be suggestions that school people could bring to the board that we could utilise and vice versa, but sadly that kind of reciprocal resource sharing isn't forthcoming.

A little while ago, I too was rather sick of the posts and felt the need to stay away, finding the reading too frustrating but for the opposite reasons to AbbeyA.
I need to read about what others are doing, managing, juggling, not arguing, defending, justifying.

There will be many issues discussed on MN that I will have differing views on, I'm fine with that.
I suppose I feel it's like the SN boards a bit, the forum is open to everyone, naturally, but they have a little corner that is theirs... does that make sense?? probably not, but that's my thoughts on it anyway.

I dunno.....maybe it's time for a break from MN, I find my first response in situations such as this, is feck off!

I heart MB tho

your attitude IS heterosexist, and rather shocking to me. I am really not going to apologise for that. I would be letting down the absolutely wonderful 2 mother families I know if I did.

Clearly YOUR family needed something it didn't have, clearly that was distressing for you.

That does not mean EVERY family needs a FATHER.

But we have been round and round in circles on this before, haven't we? Can we just agree that your simply cannot generalise your experiences to everyone? You loved school, well great, so did I as it happens. Your mother was home educated for a bit and didn't like it. That just isn't enough to keep coming onto home education threads which are specifically asking for others with expertise in that area, using a rather feeble line (in this case, don't bother trying to change their minds as, IMO, they are right anyway) to basically tell us YET AGAIN that you think school is a wonderful, fabulous place. My mum grew up in a Yorkshire mining town. Yet I don't go about telling people how to dig for coal, or shouting my mouth off about the advantages of coal vs gas

Every family is different and, believe it or not, HErs are not, in the main, fools. And HE has evolved a lot.

BTW sorky, rb, thanks so much for the EducationCity info, it is great. Ok now I have to go as ds wants to go BACK on the computer to do some more...

(and please remember Abbey that you left MN not over any disagreement on HE-I think we have all been very polite to you over that-but because you went too far and started spouting opinions that were straight out of Clause 28. Did you also vote for Thatcher?

)