Maths- What should we do.

[morethanpotatoprints]

Ok. Hi all.

I know I have posted so many times about my problems with maths. The light is on but nobodys home. My ed psych report said that any ability in Maths was down to sheer tenacity over many years, so you can see the extent of my problems. Dh is not always available and can seem to confuse dd more.
The poor kid is really struggling and I really don't know what to do.
I know she is only 8 but my fear is if I leave it until she is ready, shows an interest this may be never. If it was any other subject, (other than English) I would not worry, but we all need maths.
Its not like its a few odd aspects, she doesn't get the concept of adding, subtracting without looking at multiplication or divide. So any topic is out of the question until she can do this.
So even when shopping and cooking she wouldn't learn anything as even practical situations require addition/subtraction.
Do we get a tutor, or specialist tutor. I am really worried as the similarities between us in terms of Maths is uncanny. Older 2 dcs were not top in Maths but didn't struggle at all.
She just did some Bitesize and I was there to help but she ended up crying and said she doesn't understand at all. I explain she seems ok, I make a brew in same room, she moves onto next question and within 10 seconds crying again. Sorry this is long winded but I feel like she really needs some help. I don't feel confident to help her and don't know what to do next.

Honu, thank you very much for the paper clip idea. We happen to have thousands of them, so that will be good.
I feel a bit more confident now, especially since we have decided to put books away for a while and play maths. I have laid off telling dd she isn't good at maths. Well, it was more like don't worry that you struggle, i do too. I will definitely get the recommended book, it sounds just what i need. When she went to bed she said she should do maths tomorrow because she's rubbish at it and needs to practice, poor love. I said we'd play some maths games and make a number square etc and she was so happy.
Thank you all again. If I missed anyone out many apologies I have read them all and taken it all on board.

Two good sources of resources I have found for Maths are this one and this US one. They may be worth a look if only to give you an idea of resources you could adapt to be home made. The times tales one really helps with learning multiplication tables when you get to that.

There are varying views on the validity of this (and the 1929 study was not exactly scientific) but you might want to read this article: When Less Is More: The Case for Teaching Less Math in Schools.

Back in the day, I found Martin Hughes book tremendously useful. It's on Amazon for under 3 quid including postage.

Children and Number: Difficulties in Learning Mathematics (Paperback) by Martin Hughes

"In Children and Number Martin Hughes proposes a new perspective on children′s early attempts to understand mathematics. He describes the surprisingly substantial knowledge about number which children acquire naturally before they start school, and contrasts this with the difficulties presented by the formal written symbolism of mathematics in the classroom. He argues that children need to build links between their informal and their formal understanding of number, and shows what happens when these links are not made.

Children and Number describes many novel ways in which young children can be helped to learn about number. The author shows that the written symbols children often invent for themselves are more meaningful to them than the symbols that they are taught. He presents simple number games for introducing children to mathematical symbols in ways they can appreciate and understand."

DS1 has mild dyslexia and I found visual and tangible props helped no end. When he moved on to division and division with remainders it was like a foreign language to him. So I used coins to help e.g. if we were doing 9 divided by 3 I would draw three circles and get him to share 9 coins between them. He could then see that 9 split into 3 lots of three. The same worked with 10 for example, he could see 10/3 was 3 lots of 3 and one coin left.

I think he literally needed to see the sum work not just think about it.

Another way to teach basic plus and minus (addition and subtraction) is by using a number line. So you draw a line and mark out equal sections (zero at one end and say 20 at another) ( you can also use this to explain negative numbers). Then say you had 3 sweets and someone gave you 2 more so uou move two steps from the number 2 and land on 5. Therefore 2+3=5.
You can do subtraction this way too. It is very visual.
Also, don't be afraid to creat your own methods to teach things. Experiment. If it does not work, try something new. Even able children need to visualise things sometimes.

'two steps from number 3!

Someone needs to teach me basic typing on my phone!

I am still reading and love the practical suggestions. We are doing a lot more visual stuff and dd helped dh to add up to £896 today. We are not rich he had to pay into bank (business). But she did it and dh filled in the counterfoil. She then had a lesson in how much of that money was ours and what bills had to be paid. So good life skills, and HTU.
Will definitely read the article and I love bargain books, so will get this too, lol.

Silibilimili, I have no experience of teaching maths to primary-aged children. However, I've always found the use of number lines for very young children surprising. On a personal level it strikes me as a fairly abstract concept, this correspondence between piles of sweets and moving around on a line.

There does come a time when the number line is a really useful model. I just wouldn't have expected it to "click" with someone who isn't already proficient at basic arithmetic. But maybe that is just me. Now you have got me curious as to whether it could be a more useful tool than I thought.

Is there anyone else reading this thread who has used number lines with a child who struggles to understand maths? Did it make sense to them?

Interesting discussion. I never used number lines for my own children when they were small, just buttons (or sweets ). I do like number lines for teaching negative number calculations to older children though.

I would recommend the board games from Orchard Toys here. Good quality, fun and VERY educational.

Have you thought about using mini whiteboards at home (available from stationers)? Writing on these isn't such a chore for children as they are not so afraid to get things wrong. Maths is about trying different things and perseverance and always wanting the right answer can frighten children into not writing anything.

I like number lines being introduced to young kids because it is useful for older kids (eg. Negative numbers, decimals etc.). And I think it is better introduced early so later they are not introduced to two concepts. It also means you can do some big out doors Maths, maybe draw one in chalk on the patio, and jump ahead 4, then back 3 and so on.
Also getting a child to try and make the biggest number line they can, can help give an idea of really big numbers, as well as being fun!

I would have a look at thiscrickweb .Not only online games but free resources to print off.

Card games are excellent and cheap - one pack of playing cards and a multitude of games.

I have a teacher friend who was bemoaning the difficulty his son had with maths, and to indicate how bad the situation was he said dramatically "he doesn't even get it when I show him on a number line!"

This parent was quite taken aback when I said number lines wouldn't have helped me either.

Another friend was hugely taken with the idea of using batteries to demonstrate fractions and place value: Look! 6 times 1 point 5 volts is the SAME as a single 9 volt battery! In this case the child was baffled because he took things literally and knew you couldn't stuff a bunch of single batteries into a bicycle lamp, so how could it be "the same" and what was "point 5" anyway...

I am not a teacher so do not know if number lines are introduced early at school or not. However, I have been teaching my dd at home who has just turned 5 and is in reception. She knows and recognises her numbers to 100. Knows them in sequence and out of. We have been doing additions and she is very good at adding numbers that equal to 10 using fingers. However, more fingers are needed for anything above and she is not a digitally challanged octopus. I found that she was getting distracted and going of tangent when trying the additions with beads/abacus etc.
So, I started teaching with the number line. Showing her how it works. She did not understand how mummy can know so quickly that if she is being read a book of 20 pages, and we have read 15, only 5 more are left. So I showed her the number line. She loves it and has attempted to draw it out herself when playing on her own. It has only been a week since I have introduced this. I don't think I have confused her at all, just added to her knowledge.
Yes, it will be very useful when teaching negative numbers but it's too early for that for us.

Apologies. In my earlier post I used the words basic Maths. I am good at Maths so doing simple sums is basic to me and not to a 5 year old.
I agree that to teach addition and subtraction, sweets, pebbles, cars, hair boules work much better in the earlier stages. Once the child has grasped the meaning of addition/adding, and is ready for the bigger numbers which can't be done on fingers etc, then I think the number line is great.
The other advantage of the number line is you are introducing mathematical symbology to the child by say landing on the numbers and reinforcing that 17 is seventeen. The number symbology is visible.

I don't want to sound mean, but if you are not good at maths you probably need someone who not only can do it, but is a specialist in helping children with mathematically related problems to understand better.
If you were sending your child to school, you wouldn't really want someone with maths problems teaching her, would you? Or if you wanted her to learn ballet, you wouldn't expect someone with no ballet skills to try to teach her.
Your case is rather one of the blind leading the blind, and however keen and well meaning you are (or most of us on here in fact) none of us are real specialists in problems like the one you and your daughter are having.
If you are not careful she is going to end up as maths phobic as you sound (no offence meant but I believe in saying what I mean) and you don't want that.
Timely help from a real specialist in special needs in maths may turn your child into a maths lover who can actually do it.
She will need maths and I think struggling on as you are doing will not get her to like it any better. All those tears sound harrowing and very upsetting for both of you. Even just a few lessons with a specialist and lots of advice may set both of you on the right path before it is too late.
Personally, I love Maths and it was the subject I preferred teaching to my son when I HE'd him, not English, which is odd as I am a writer.
What is nice about Maths is it is quite black and white and you either get it right or you don't. Your little girl deserves to be working at the correct level under the guidance of someone with prior experience in helping kids with blockages.
Hope this helps.

I would say to let her pick a teddy bear or other toy who can learn maths with her. This works with my dd. Teddy can then give an answer if she is struggling and can need her to explain if she is understanding something. It also just makes it more fun.