Can I just say "no thanks"

[ThreadWatcher]

Hi all
Im really confident at replying when others ask this and always just think "oh you can say no, you dont have to let people visit, you can just write a letter"

But now Ive got my own letter Im wobbling a bit! :o

I started HEing almost three years ago.
After a year the LEA finally contacted me. I wrote an Ed phil etc (wrote way more than I should - I know I know!)

I met the lady in the local library (she wanted to see us at home, I declined. She wanted to meet the dc, I declined) she said she would contact me again in 6 months.
She didnt. In fact I have heard nothing for 18 months. Not a word. Until saturday when we received a letter.

She wants to send a person round to our house in a few weeks (or meet in mutual location).
I just cant be bothered tbh.
I am perfectly happy HEing and dont feel a meeting will add anything and I know the person wont have anything to say that will be helpful. I dont feel the need to enable them to fill in their tick list etc.

So I was going to write back and say "yes Ill meet you in the library"

Now Ive changed my mind. Do you think it will be ok if I just write back a couple of sentances saying "HE is going well I dont feel a visit is necessary at this time. Thanks anyway"

What do you think? Our LEA is seriously slack (rarely seem to bother contacting HErs and dont seem to follow up. My friend threw her letter in the bin and has heard nothing since.....)

Sorry for the mini essay

I wouldn't throw the letter in the bin. Since you started home educating you've supplied quite a bit of information in writing and you've met the LA. There was nothing to suggest the LA had a problem after receiving info from you or meeting you.

Opinions will differ about what you could/should do.

If you do not want to meet anyone at this stage, you could write to decline the meeting and give a brief update, with some indication of some of the changes that have taken place since you last had contact with the LA.

I would preface this with a reminder - in writing - that you have already had a meeting and that you don't feel that there is anything to be gained by having another meeting because you don't have any questions, but that you will be happy to receive any information in the post which the LA might have been planning to give you at the face to face meeting, such as whether there have been any developments at the Council with improved access to services for home educated children.

I agree with Fiona.
I'd send the same Ed Phil, and a brief update of the things you've done.

"that you will be happy to receive any information in the post which the LA might have been planning to give you at the face to face meeting, such as whether there have been any developments at the Council with improved access to services for home educated children."

I like that-but think you shouldn't hold your breath........

I declined meetings from the start, apart from a rather uncomfortable few minutes with an EWO who turned up uninvited at our house, there hasn't been a problem. The HE people at the LA were absolutely fine about it, the message just hadn't go through to the (shockingly rude) EWO in time.

I'd go for a very brief update and we're happy with what we're doing and don't require any advice/support so a meeting isn't necessary thanks.

Thanks all :)

I will write a brief update letter, saying HE is going well thanks but I dont feel a meeting will add anything as I dont require advice or support..... and see what happens!

Our LEA are very patchy in their approach. Some have had EWO turn up unannouced at the door, some have been largely ignored (thankfully I seem to fall into the latter category)

I was really shocked when my HEing pal announced she had thrown her letter in the bin - but months later she still hasnt received a follow up letter or visit. (same LEA)

I'm just researching homeschooling or flexischooling (very keen but ds1 is only 2.5!) so very new to all the ins and outs of the LEA side of things. Can I ask why not accept a visit? Or if this is an old chestnut, can you direct me to a thread or link about it? Thanks!

Hi Gentleness!

The main reason some of us are always banging on about The Right Not to Have Visits is because some LAs are seriously irresponsible in failing to acknowledge that parents have this right. They may mislead or even lie to parents, giving the impression that a home visit is a legal requirement. It is not.

....which doesn't answer your question, I know, but helps to explain why the topic comes up often.

Here are some of the reasons I can think of why parents might not want a visit. I've tried to be brief!

• They feel it would be intrusive.
• They prefer to spend their time doing other things.
• They are able to express themselves better in writing.
• They think it would worry their children, eg that the children might think they aren't "performing" to a high enough standard or might think they could be sent back to school (especially worrying for children who were unhappy at school).
• From a legal standpoint, if there is any possibility of going head-to-head with the LA in court then it is better to have supplied information in some other format rather than having accepted visits.
• They feel insulted because the LA has stated or implied that the reason they want to do home visits is to look for signs of child abuse.
• They wouldn't actually personally mind having a visit themselves but are making a political point, such as "parents are responsible for children's education and shouldn't be inspected" or "I don't want it to become the norm that the LA expects everyone to accept visits, because other people might not want them. By refusing a visit I make it easier for others to do so."
• They don't believe the LA staff are competent to make judgements about home education because staff have given the appearance of having little understanding of home education.

For many families I should think it is a combination of reasons.

Hope that helps!

In my opinion, not HE'ing BTW, I would accept a meeting just to show the child is fine. If a parent continually refused to allow anyone to see a child, any responsible person would have to consider abuse as a potential reason and then ensure this was followed up. A meeting would remove this suspicion and then all ok.

Hi youngermother1

Accepting a meeting just to show the child is fine would be more appropriate and proportionate if concerns had been raised that the child was NOT fine, but not as a matter of routine.

The Government Guidelines for Home Education have this to say

edyourself.org/articles/guidelines.php#notmeetchild

"3.6 Some parents may welcome the opportunity to discuss the provision that they are making for the child?s education during a home visit but parents are not legally required to give the local authority access to their home. They may choose to meet a local authority representative at a mutually convenient and neutral location instead, with or without the child being present, or choose not to meet at all. Where a parent elects not to allow access to their home or their child, this does not of itself constitute a ground for concern about the education provision being made. Where local authorities are not able to visit homes, they should, in the vast majority of cases, be able to discuss and evaluate the parents? educational provision by alternative means. If they choose not to meet, parents may be asked to provide evidence that they are providing a suitable education. If a local authority asks parents for information they are under no duty to comply although it would be sensible for them to do so.10 Parents might prefer, for example, to write a report, provide samples of work, have their educational provision endorsed by a third party (such as an independent home tutor) or provide evidence in some other appropriate form."

This section of the Home Education Guidelines achieves de facto statutory status by being cited in the statutory guidance on Children Missing Education
edyourself.org/articles/helaw.php#CME

Child Protection issues are separate from education. The relevant section of the Guidelines can be found here edyourself.org/articles/guidelines.php#childprotection

"4.7 The welfare and protection of all children, both those who attend school and those who are educated at home, are of paramount concern and the responsibility of the whole community. Working Together to Safeguard Children 2006 states that all agencies and individuals should aim proactively to safeguard and promote the welfare of children. As with school educated children, child protection issues may arise in relation to home educated children. If any child protection concerns come to light in the course of engagement with children and families, or otherwise, these concerns should immediately be referred to the appropriate authorities using established protocols."

My LA lied and misled. I tried to decline a visit, but they sent a letter with two areas of required criteria (in addition to the detailed ed. phil. and report I'd already sent). The first being that I'd have to provide evidence of home ed, as in a meeting at home. And secondly the dc would need to be seen, even if not present at the meeting.
If I refused these then they'd consider me not to be providing a suitable home education and refer to missing children in education.

We 'passed' of course, and were above average for dcs ages, according to the LA report. But the visit was a waste of our time, and the inspector seemed bored and most of the questions were about socialisation. Same every year, they tick their boxes, there is no benefit in the visits to us.

I admire those who challenge the LAs and refuse visits, but I wouldn't have the time or energy to deal with a heavy-handed LA misinterpreting or misleading about points of law.

Saracen - thats a great list of reasons not to accept a visit! My reason not to want a visit is mainly your second reason: I would prefer to spend my time doing other things!
I have HEd happily and confidently (mostly) for almost three years. I know the visitor is unlikely to have any advice or sugestions to offer that will be helpful to me. I dont feel any need to enable them to tick their boxes or validate my HE experience by talking to an LEA bod.

The above two sentances make me sound really arrogant (which Im not really!) - I met an LEA bod 2 years ago, she honestly didnt have much of a clue what she was talking about.

My EHE person wants to visit on 25 May - and I have written to say in essence "all is well, I dont want a visit or a meeting elsewhere, thanks anyway"
I posted my letter on Thursday so Im nervously waiting now to see if they respond - and Im planning not to be in on that day!

Saracen thanks for your greatly comprehensive reply - really helpful thanks! I'd been thinking that having a visitor is always nice and we could feed them biscuits and show off a bit - maybe that's a rosy view of ignorance! There's plenty of time for us to decide such things anyway...

Gentle - That is the frustrating thing! I love baking cakes and biscuits for visitors and showing off the fabulous things my children are doing. My children showing off the fabulous things they have done. As you say having a visitor is always nice.

But a stranger in my home, meeting my children who both have special needs, who will go away and write a report, making judgements on my children, our home.......... Because they are not a friend, they are in a professional role checking up on us!

Arghhhhh - no thankyou

Following a discussion about this on our local HE email list, an experienced HE mum has offered to go round to anyone's house to consume tea and biscuits, make supportive noises and admire anything the children may want to show her. Not being employed by the LA, she would NOT then give unsolicited advice, go away and write up a (possibly critical) report, or try to demand future visits if they weren't wanted! And she knows at least a hundred times as much about home education as anyone at the council.

If the tea-and-biscuits scenario appeals to you, you might find a sympathetic HE parent in your area who is happy to do this for you.

Why are you being so difficult? Surely you can spare an hour out of your day to meet with them? I think the more obstructive you are, the more chance there is that they will make negative judgements about you.

Marie, to use an analogy, suppose a security guard at the supermarket decided that it was OK to strip search any customers whenever she wanted, even if there was no reason to suppose they had stolen anything, "just in case." Would you submit to that?

That would only take five minutes, and then she would go away happy. Why be difficult and obstructive? If you refuse, she will only think it more likely that you have actually stolen something. Makes sense to cooperate.

If you wouldn't go along with being treated that way at the supermarket, why do you recommend that home ed families cooperate with a policy for which there is no legal basis, just in order to make some public servant happy?

...besides, word has it in home ed circles that far from keeping the bureaucrats happy, cooperating with unreasonable demands often encourages them to think up ever more hoops for people to jump through. Where does it stop? Why not stop it right at the beginning, as soon as one is asked to do something which isn't legally required?

Hi MarieFromStMoritz

I too used to wonder why people would say they didn't want to give up their time to meet with the LA.

After a while, I came to the tentative conclusion that it's about far more than the number of minutes spent in the meeting itself, it's the potentially huge (and draining) amount of time spent before and after trying to cover every eventuality and make sure that nothing can go wrong.

I'm not saying that my interpretation applies across the board or specifically to anyone who is posting here. And of course I could just be projecting.

Personally I size up the world in terms of "what could possibly go wrong, how could I pre-empt it and taking everything into account is option A less risky than options B through to Z"

And I also spend an inconceivably large amount of time mentally preparing for face to face meetings and rehearsing scenarios with if they say this then I could say that but...

After most events, I am compelled to conduct a extensive post-mortem, replaying the scene, ruminating over what could have gone better, castigating myself for missed opportunities or for anything I did which might reduce my control over subsequent events.

A visit to the home undeniably offers the opportunity for a negative judgment to be made, just in a different way from refusing a visit to the home.

I'm trying to imagine what it would be like to take things in my stride, and not to spend so much time preparing or dissecting but I'm afraid my imagination fails me.

I had specific reasons for agreeing to a home visit which were to do with being a single parent. I don't think I have ever told anyone not to have a meeting, because I believe it's up to the individual to make the risk assessment for themselves.

I'm just thinking too about my expectations as a teacher that I would be professionally monitored, assessed and accountable. Perhaps I've just transferred that expectation over, and it isn't like for like.

Lots to think about thanks, and sorry for the thread hijack!

I homeschooled my kids in the UK. I can't really see what the big deal is in just letting them see that everything is going well. For all they know, you might be teaching them according to Neo-Nazi philosophy.

Gentle - hijack away! I think to accept/not accept a visit as a HEr is interesting for those of us who have been HEing a while and potbetially a VERY important topic to be clued up on if you a new to HE.

Saracen - Thats a really good suggestion! I'm going to suggest to a friend that we have 'HE show and tell, with biscuits' days!! :)

Marie - Obviously I am not indoctrinating my kids in Nazi philosophy (eek!) but as a HEr to some extent that is my choice??? What to teach I mean.

I don't see my rejection of a visit as 'being difficult' - I see it as wise and sensible - variety of reasons!
One us that my dc went to school for 2-3 years - lasting negative impact on my ds. If we talk about school (even now 3years later) for longer than a few minutes, he will start hitting things and crying and shouting. He us still refusing to engage in learning the second language he was learning at school.

I gave schools a chance to educate my children. It resulted in emotional distress. I am now taking responsibilty to succeed where school failed/ruined my dc. I don't feel any need to prove or validate my/our choice to any outsiders.

Also (referring to fionas post) a visit/meeting will result in a week of stress/anxiety before, plus another after. Why would anyone knowingly choose to put their autistic and dyslexic dc through that. General day to day life is hard enough - I've no desire to up the challenge if indont have too!

Marie, I'm happy for you that your choice to have a home visits worked well.

Sadly this is not always the case. My children were very badly damaged by their experiences in school, and any thought that someone would come into their place of safety, to make judgements, was enough to make them very stressed and upset, so we listened to their wishes and didn't allow the LA anywhere near.

Plus every now and again, we find evidence of a LA just not obeying the law and allowing their school based prejudices to get in the way.

Just last month, I supported a family where the LA had done a home visit, that seemed to go well but in the written report deemed that the education was unsuitable, without detailing why they came to this conclusion. An EWO was dispatched to arrange to send the child back to school. I went along and found a happy little lad, obviously getting an education that was personal and suitable to him.
I asked the EWO where in the procedure laid down in law, we were up to, with regard to returning the child to school? Suddenly the EWO backed off, "didn't know the law on HE in detail" and would refer back to the HE department......
I wrote to them asking them to detail their concerns and stick to the legal requirements and hey presto suddenly the Home Education was suitable after all and they are happy to leave the family alone.

This doesn't often happen....families don't get in touch with me or other supporters when all goes well, but it happens enough to cause distrust amongst a community of people who live within the law and just want the LAs to do the same.

potbetially - potentially

Julie - that one awful story is enough to put me off accepting a visit. I'm glad it worked out in the end. Fantastic that you were able to help.

I've accepted visits from the LA in the past for the reasons Marie suggests, but I won't be doing it any more.

My LA has been very poor with regard to HE. My first visit over three years ago was from two young EWOs who blindly believed that the LA's way of doing things was right and became cross and defensive when I reminded them of the law. I was told that because I hadn't answered a particular question on the supposedly optional questionnaire they gave me (which I later learned had been revised a year earlier and was now obsolete), I would probably get a call from Child Protection, 'just to be on the safe side' . I was effectively bullied into filling in the form their way but it was still illegal.

Later we had a lovely HE 'advisor' who I was happy to liaise with. She genuinely cared about children and could see that ds was thriving, and wrote reports saying that he was in the best possible provision. Unfortunately she was lost in the spending review and we now have a department full of people whose backgrounds are Children Missing Education, traveller families, pregnant teenagers etc. They have no clue about the law regarding HE or how home educating families support their children. The department has been renamed Behaviour and Attendance because they believe that HE families have issues with both.

Last year, I met with the senior officer responsible for HE and two of her colleagues to ask some specific questions about taking exams and was effectively questioned about very basic principles of home education (the sort of things that people new to HE should be asking from them and receiving appropriate advice), and a lot of it was focused on risk and child protection. This is my LA's attitude to HE - it's a problem to be resolved and they start at the default position that there is harm being done.

I was due to have a review of ds's provision at the beginning of April. I emailed progress reports but didn't get so much as an acknowledgement of receipt. If and when I am contacted again about a meeting I will not be accepting.

Streaky
I find it odd that they are soooo ignorant. I have this naive idea that people read up about the job/case load they are working with...... silly me!

Annoyingly enough our LEA bod is also a 'behaviour and inclusion officer' - if I have remembered correctly. The stupid thing is of course, the more we retreat from the lea the more ignorant they remain (shows who needs educating!!)

My ds has just received his 'home test result' from Mensa (proud mum alert!) - Now that I know his IQ as well as his asperger dx no wonder school was not the right place for him. Another school maybe - but no suitable school local to us.

He is currently playing 'teddy wars' with his sister (it's more nosy than educational!)