My daughters CAMHS councellor says if we HEd her it will harm her mental health

[MeanMom]

DD is 13 and has missed a lot of (current) Yr8 due to anxiety and depression. She has just started to see a CAHMS councellor re the anxiety (we are waiting to see child psyc re depression). Her school have not been supportive and despite having seen her CAHMS assessment want a letter from GP supporting her absence from school. GP has not done this so far (GP and CAHMS each believe other should do this )
CAHMS have suggested DD go into school for a couple of hours to learning centre one day just after Easter Holidays. Her Vision Support Teacher (not school staff) will be their to go through what school have promised to have in place by then.
DD does not feel ready to go into school AT ALL until after her eye operation (she has bilateral cateracts - her vision is v poor) but we do not have a date for op. We have been considering Home Ed. but CAMHS say this would be running away from the problem and will be harmful in the long term.
I had asked for work to be sent home via VLE, I have also had the local Children Not In Ed centre suggested to me but school seem determined she should go back to the environment that she finds so scary, and DD is loosing trust in CAMHS for supporting this view.

Is H Ed 'running away' from her problems? I don't know what to do next?

I always wonder about people who think ?running away? from something is such a bad thing even though I?ve been guilty of it myself. As adults we would automatically ?run away? from many situations, and quite rightly. The assumption that if you run away you?ll become neurotic and always run away from everything seems very odd. We believe it because we?re told it again and again, but what evidence is it based on?

My son did his best to stand up to intense bullying, but in the end was pushed out by adults not being able to cope with seeing him become a silent shaking mess who kept showing up for more.

Home edding we were able to learn how to make wiser decisions than it?s ?all or nothing?, and a large part of our home edding has been tackling a number of learning difficulties he has, but also tackling the damage that was done through years of not having them tackled. He?s now a very different (and much better educated) happy person with massively fewer problems and a good overview of himself and how to fit in regardless of visible differences.

going to school would be scary because until she can see she will have to trust other people to help her around- she doesn't.

I?m in a wheelchair, and frankly I can?t argue with that, she probably has already experienced the reality of what it means.

Forced dependence and being constantly let down/having to apologise for existence/deal with everyone?s needs about ?helping?/prop up their egos/made to wait/added on belatedly/told what's being missed doesn?t matter, is far more crippling than what put me here. I should think being in that position as a teen is even worse.
My best wishes to her, and you.

CAMHS are very familiar with school related anxiety difficulties - this is a 'bread and butter' problem that the service will have seen many cases of and treated successfully (although each case is different, obviously). And part of the treatment for it is the child continuing to attend school if at all possible, as the overwhelming majority of research shows that totally avoiding the activity that causes the anxiety makes anxiety worse. However this should be alongside therapy such as cognitive behaviour therapy to form an overall treatment plan.
Part of CAMHS role in this kind of treatment plan is to liaise with the school. If your child's school is being 'resistant' to understanding your child's anxiety then CAMHS will be/should work closely with the school to ensure that the school develops understanding and a supportive attitude. I'm sure if you ask the CAMHS clinician they will explain what work they are doing with the school.
If your child is so anxious that school reintegration is just not possible CAMHS will consider alternative provision as the next step, but perhaps they feel that some level of reintegration is possible at the moment. However if your child has health problems - her eyes - that are causing more issues then discuss this more with CAMHS.

However it sounds like you need to decide if you feel that - long term - home education or return to mainstream school is in your child's best interests. Before you decide on the home ed route please educate yourself fully about anxiety in children, what causes and maintains it, and how to manage it so that you can make a fully informed choice. I say this because home ed might be the right choice for your child, but it might make the anxiety worse and lead it to affect other aspects of your child's life or become a more intractable, longer term problem.

You particularly need to learn about the role of avoidance in maintaining anxiety problems.

Best wishes for it all.

I'm a CAMHS clinician by the way

Thank you JustGetting... - your post made me have a little tear :( but what you say about your experience in a wheelchair are so true of DD - I'm sorry you have to go through it too.

A lot of our problem is getting the school to believe there IS a problem because of course when he is at school she is quiet and well behaved and can sometimes even seem 'happy' - CAMHS have said this is because she is bottling it all up to appear 'normal' and not cause trouble. Not healthy.

I have copied and pasted your post to show DD so she knows she's not the only one.

Selks - thank you for the 'CAMHS' eye view on this. Yes, I think I do understand what councellor trying to do - I have read the book she recommended to me. CBT tries to approach the scary thing a little at a time to show that at each step the person can deal with the problem and/or it's not as bad as they thought. DD has been trying this route since November - was managing days and even weeks at school at a time. Then something would happen - she'd have to ask to leave class because of hypo, she'd get a bad Mark because she couldn't understand the topic because of struggling to see it, teacher mentioned restarting 'tech' lessons and her 'black dog' would come back. I do understand that avoidance may cause more harm but facing the problem has so far not helped her. Forcing her into a corner is not helping her.
I can't talk to CAMHS councellor during Easter hols, Young minds have suggested trying again to get Doc note issued, but GP off for Easter too. Have GP appoint 16th April. Fingers crossed GP will view the sight problem as sufficient to sign her off.
Time for a I think - thank you again everyone :)

if you give something up which you very much wanted then you risk regretting it later

but people have also regretted not starting home ed earlier

you can't know what you'll regret later

this is what keeps people stuck

From personal experience I think CAMHS are, while well-meaning, WRONG. I really do think if a child is so miserable at school then the only thing you should do is take them out.

I was forced into school for too long, but in my case it was my parents who refused to believe that their intelligent, high achieving daughter was being damaged by school.

I spent a year and a half technically home ed, but was in hospital for some of that time. School let me take some GCSEs there. I then went to an FE college and was really happy there so there is a happy ending!

Interestingly I have just, age 25, found out that I am very likely to have Aspergers.

Sorry not saying home ed is always right, but I do think it is really worth considering, and you seem to know your child so much better than my parents knew me.

Selks, I think the idea that "totally avoiding the activity that causes the anxiety makes anxiety worse" is often misguided in the case of school phobia. I assume this approach only applies in cases where

1. The anxiety is irrational. But much school-related anxiety has a totally rational basis. The OP says, for example, that "in theory she can alread leave class whenever she wants to because of her diabetes and she knows most teachers will not make a 'thing' of it. She does not want to do this in front of the bitches girls in her class." By this I take it that there is a very real danger of social ostracism. Presumably she has suffered nastiness herself at their hands or has seen what they dish out to others who don't conform. As we all remember from our days at school, the closed social circle in which teens operate at school makes that sort of ostracism very potent and painful.

As an analogy, if I feared walking down a particular dark alley near my home because I had been beaten up there before and the thugs who had done it still lurked there, this would not be an irrational anxiety! It would be very sensible of me to seek to avoid the alley. I would hope you would encourage me to find an alternative route rather than encouraging me to face my fears and get used to the idea of going down the alley.

and 2) Avoiding the activity that causes the anxiety is likely to have a detrimental effect on the person's life. But most of us home educators will tell you that avoiding school does not restrict a child's prospects or enjoyment of life; quite the opposite. School is a very particular type of institution which breeds particular problems. School-type problems are rarely encountered elsewhere in the wider world with anything like the same intensity. Bullying, for example, can happen elsewhere but it is usually easier to deal with outside of school. Social ostracism can happen elsewhere, but it loses much of its power when the victim has the freedom to choose to move in different social circles. Because of this, children who have been paralysed with the fear of bullying or ostracism at school are not necessarily going to find their lives restricted by that fear in the long term in other situations.

So I don't really think your argument holds water. However, I will be very interested to hear more if you do have any direct experience of working with young people who have left school to be home educated and have found that this course of action made their anxiety worse, or if you know of any research which supports your view.

Saracen - thank you - you have summed that up better than I could. CBT is (if I am right) based on fears being largely unfounded and/or learning to deal with them.
Some of Ks fears are unfounded and she knows that ( there is no monster in our house and she is getting better at being on her own upstairs) but her problems with vision are real and most people would be concerned they might fall down stairs. Her 'friends' have gone off and left her when she was doing her lunch time injection(after saying they would wait) and she has been left searching for them for the rest of the break. They are 13 and self involved - most 13 year olds are, I suppose. DD spends all her time thinking her problems are not important and that she has to help other people (she has class mates who self harm more than she does who she tries to get to tell their parents for example) The school is just so toxic for DD at the moment :(

Betelgeuse - thank you for your PM's - not sure I understand about DD being 'gifted' - do you mean all grammar school pupils are 'gifted' by definition? I didn't know that - not sure if DD would be pleased a out that or not!
Got hold of Opthometrist secretary this morning and am hopefull of support from that direction - have to wait to hear back. Also waiting for a reply to message I left on answer machine of local Ed Psyc I found on line.

Thank you everyone else who replied too :)

Betelgeuse - DD is interested in creative things - she is very good at English (although her grades have slipped a little as she doesn't read much at the moment) Drama,Dance, Music, Art, Photography and Filmaking (again not so much at the monent because of her vision) She does take an interest in History and Geography (although not physical geo so much) and is interested different religions. She is NOT remotely interested in learning how anything works and using any kind of tools - she doesnt even like to paint in Art - she is a pen and ink artist (she gets this from her Dad and his Dad) She does like to cook but it is the creative part and the Eating part she likes! (she does not like receipes - I have to have a receipe and am interested in the nutition of food - I don't care if I eat it or not!). She hates Maths because she thinks she can't do it but she is actually more Maths minded than DH or me - and we have both worked on Accountancy!

Umm - why do you ask?

Have heard from Nat Blind Childrens Ed Support lady this morning - had a ling chat and she had offered to speak to school and come and see DD if she wants - not sure what it would achieve but at least have someone else on 'our side now' :)

MeanMom, I replied to your post on another forum yesterday - do have a look at the library service I mentioned, and Listening Books, esp if your DD enjoys reading/English/books.

Good luck with whatever route you choose.

RuDe - thank you I did see your post and am looking into that - DD doesn't like to read large fonts on paper much as they tire her out so she only manages a short while/gets frustrated. We have lots of story CDs - she has listened to them at lights out all her life. But I will see what New stuff I can get hold of.

Betelgeuse - you made me smile with your 'come on!' :)
DD had already done the topics you mention (or most) and can answer most questions correctly. What I meant was she thinks she can't do them as - yes - she had a bad teacher in Yr 4 who knocked her confidence, and, as you have said ^ - she is in a school with some very clever girls, some of them being Maths 'genius' types - she expects to keep up with them, forgetting that most of them cannot keep up with her in English or ICT.

DD said to me last night - ' if I do HEd what reason shall I tell people - I can't say it's cos I hate school - everyone hates school!'

We decided she would be most comfortable with saying ' It's because I know I wan to be a film maker and performer and for that I do not need Science subjects or technology and I would have to do them for at least more year if I stay in school' (of course science and tech will be useful to her in part but at home she will not have to spend so much time on them at school - just simpler to say to people she won't need them at all)

I do worry that she thinks she needs an 'excuse' and is concerned people will think her 'weird' if home schooled.

It sounds like she is leaning more strongly toward HE then.

Don't worry about her needing an "excuse" to HE at this time: so do a lot of adults! Once she has settled into it I am sure her confidence will grow and she will begin to feel able to tell people something which is closer to the truth with less fear of what they will think. I think your daughter should feel free to give people any reason for home education which feels comfortable to her. She will be repeating it quite a lot!

I'd get her to say something along the lines of "it lets me work at my own pace, so I can cover the curriculum more quickly for stuff I find easy, and spend a bit longer on stuff I have to work harder at" - or just go for the "it means I can go swimming/to the theme park/etc when it's nice and quiet with no queues", just to wind them up :o

I'd just go for the "because school's shite. Why would anyone go if their parents say they don't have to?" line

:o

Betelguse - thank you - have looked at those and they are very interesting - we are not near London so the Art school is probably not an option, but I have passed on the details to DD of the poetry competition. It's tricky - she doesn't have any confidence in her abilities at the moment so I'm not sure what she will do - I have a fantastic poem on my kitchen wall she wrote when she was 10 about the River Nile - would be a bit naughty if I sent that in I suppose
ommm - made me :o - that's what I would say but DD cares far too much what other people think - s'pose it's a teenage thing.
Saracen - yes it is good that she's thinking about what she would tell people, but I would rather she wasn't worrying that people would add it to the list of things that make her 'different'. She does think of herself as on the outside looking in. I know what she means - but I'm more of an 'outside looking out' person. I haven't given one minutes thought to what we will 'tell people' - if people don't like it's their problem.

The SENCO at DDs school said to DH the other day 'the problem with your DD is that she expects too much from her friends' DH was very calm and said ' well yes DD expects her friends to treat her as she treats them - with kindness and care for their feelings, and she offers help when they need it.'
I'm proud that she is like this - it is not a failing - and if that school expects her to walk all over other people to get what she needs (not wants) then it most certainly is not the right place for her.
What's the point in 10 A GCSEs if you have to become a btch to get them?
Sorry - Rant over - Happy Easter! [busmile]

Wow, your dh sounds wonderfully tuned in to the situation and very supportive of his daughter. Me, I would just foam at the mouth incoherently at what the SENCO said.

Here's hoping she'll soon find friends who measure up to what she rightly expects.

It sounds as if she does have good self-esteem at core!