Thread for antique letter decipherers! Pics included

[OldTrot]

Thought I'd set up a thread for those of us interested in historical letters/ postcards/ photos

Here's my current one... and what I have so far!

? June 14th 1843

Send my father tomorrow
Mr W ??? Hungerford (don't think it's this)

1/2 ? ?
1/2 ? ?

The sooner leader is up here packing, the better, he had better bring up some empty ? there are so many ? bottles (?) to move

Here you are

PS You might recognise it here:

Thank you, but absolutely no need to apologise at all, @OldTrot - glad to have been of help.

Meineke (1782-1850) was German, settling in the USA by 1822 (via England). He was organist at St. Paul’s Episcopal Church in Baltimore in 1836.

Did we say Ditchingham?

I've just landed there again, from a totally different direction, in 1882 with H Rider Haggard. His wife's ancestral estate, apparently.

Also, Rider Haggard was the gt-gt-gt-grandson of George II's principal surgeon and his great nth uncles bankrolled the Seven Years War.

Who knew?

I started out this morning with C18th traders to St Petersburg.

Watching this one. I decipher old texts for work on a regular basis with an emphasis on 17th century onward.

Glad to see you, Rushin.

I nearly had another query for this thread yesterday, but fortunately got it at the last moment with the help of a second source. Don't you just love people who form all their Ms one way... until they have a little moment and write the next one differently... exactly like their Ws... Grrrr!

Actually I could still do with help with this one, please, if you were up for it!

Second line:
"Considering I am ????? And for preventing differences"

Most interesting thread I’ve seen for ages.

'Considering I am harmed and for preventing any differences may arise betwixt my two daughters Joan and Margaret' - that’s my best guess at the moment @TressiliansStone !

Sorry - there is another word after 'harmed' but I can’t decide what it is….I'll keep trying…

Line 2. The first letter of the word after 'am' might start with a b or an n. The word ends in a d.

b? Not an h as they have looped tops in this hand. Can't see specimen bs though. Are there any further down the page?

n? Line 6, two words after 'children'. That's a very similar word and might be the same if we allow for squiggly variation. 'Named'?

I’ve got:

I Gilbert Muir ? ? Of Aberde(e)n Considering I am ? over And for preventing Any differences may happen to arise ? my two daughters Joan and Margaret Muirs and their Children Do Declare that I have by my letters of Disposition (?) of this take Disponded to the D Margaret Muir in ? and her Children ? Named ? for my ? ? subjects(?)

I think it relates to a legal contract to pass property on from a father to his daughters?

Could also be Moir rather then Muir.

Thank you all.

The spelling issue of Muir or Moir (or More, Moor, Moore) follows this family down the generations, so although I think it's Moir here, I'm pretty relaxed about it.

My transcription thus far:

I Gilbert Moir Couper burges of Aberdein Considering I am [?] And for preventing any differences may happen to arise betwixt my two daughters Jean and Margaret Moirs and their Children Do Declare That I have by my Letters of Disposition of this date Disponed To the s[ai]d Margaret Moir in Lyverent and her Children therin named in Fee My haill heretable Subjects and

Where Lyverent means liferent. This clerk's "v" looks a lot like a "b".

Shall see if I can find other egs of letters, as requested. He has a very odd "r", like two feet in the corners of a sack for a sack-race!

NB This is the dastardly clerk who does his capital M in names (Margaret Moir) differently from his capital M elsewhere (My haill)... which is nigh identical to his capital Wh.

So the first of these pics reads (2nd line) "In Witness Wherof".

But the second of these pics reads "James Strachan Merch[an]t" and "s[ai] Margaret Moir".

I could cheerfully wring his neck – except that although eccentric his handwriting is actually fairly well formed.

OK, there are "b"s in the first sample, in "Aberdein" and "heretable Subjects". They have looped tops, so I don't think it's a b at the front of the mystery word.

I wondered if it was an "n" or "m" that started rather enthusiastically.

I'm not convinced, but my favourite so far is "maried &c", which would fit contextually – apart from the complete lack of reference to a living wife (which is unusual, even if she's been taken care of by a marriage settlement).

If that crown and coat of arms in the paper is a stamped impression rather than a watermark, then it is slightly three-dimensional, so maybe that's why the very squiggly word has run into difficulties.

This piece of paper is from 1742!

I figured it was pretty old. Lots of Moirs and Muirs in Aberdeenshire I think?

Judging by what I've been wading through, one or two, yes...

I'm actually looking at Gilbert because I believe I've found the 1781 will of his grandson, John Stra[c]han in London, which um, diverges from standard wording...

It begins:

"In the Name of God the Omnipotent the Fountain of truth in whom there is no Guile the Creator of the Universal All and of Man a vain Thing the best not Good the worst below the Brute the most perfect full of Error Give him power and he will abuse it give him wealth and he will become the Glutton or Wanton over the Necessities of his Neighbours and enjoy their distress—It was well and truly said the greatest Enemy Mankind has is Man—Why so much Contempt the one to the other I own the necessity in Mankind being Classed—My Lord shall oftener be seen in Acts of Goodness to the Indigent than the Farmer to the Cottager the defect of Education and depravity of human nature– each may maintain his Rank and yet Universal Justice become the Object of all – John Strahan with forgiveness in so far as he may or can to all his Enemies which by the bye are within and without Doctors Commons makes his last Will and Testament or disposition of this Worldly Affairs and in humble expectation of forgiveness of all my Ommissions Sins and Ignorances in this Life of eternal Life hereafter through the means and mediation of our Blessed Saviour the hope and expectation of all Christians and having no Act of a Criminal or offensive nature whatever on a retrospect of my past Life to accuse myself with But with truth may [??] I have Studied to be of use to mankind rather than at any time to distress them Resign my Soul to God"

and goes on

"I have lately made and executed a Deed or Disposition to and in favor of my Wife Mary Strahan in the Form agreeable to the Laws of Scotland of the Estate situate at the shore of Aberdeen and of the Lands called Fill the Gap and other premises situate in or near the said City which Estate was late the Estate of Gilbert Muir my Grandfather"

The words have been written with great care and clarity: they undeniably do say "Fill the Gap".

I can't decide whether this is a real place name - or John or some wretched clerk's note-to-self which got engrossed as the final version...

(See also the famous mathematical typesetting error: "Make ε as small as possible..."

Ohhh. Any takers for "turned old" for my mystery words?

(Sorry OP, I have completely taken over your thread here!)

Could be, could well be, @TressiliansStone - I definitely see the second word as three letters, ending in a d, starting in an o. Second letter easily could be l. The first word has that distinctive r as the third letter, and the sense is right.

I think you’ve cracked it.

PS I once bought a big metal box, with lock and key, of old documents at a car boot. Full of mostly 19thc wills - I think it came from a lawyer's office - but also odd pages of letters, inventories, all manner of handwritten and engrossed papers. I often think about the people doing their family trees who might be thrilled to find these things. I've tried contacting a few I’ve found on Ancestry to ask if they'd like to have them but never had any answer!

Some of the letters are fascinating, especially the 'crossed' ones, but so difficult to decipher - great practice for this thread! One that’s just a single page is from an army officer in India in the early 19thc writing home about an earthquake and a tiger attack….undated but I managed to work out from his references to the locality what regiment he must have been in.

What an amazing find!

How lovely of you to try to reunite the documents with families.

There are people on eBay selling similar old documents. They describe the contents in enough detail that anyone googling names and places is likely to pick up the listing. But that's quite a lot of work and (if eBay still charges just for listing – I don't know anymore) would get costly.

The other thing you could do is list the items on a blog. Or would it be allowed on here, perhaps?