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The Historical Ponderings Society

740 replies

EverySongbirdSays · 24/11/2016 18:35

Following on from the thread "What questions do you have about stuff from History or am I the only one?" Which is here

Ever wondered how we got from the clothes of Cave people to the clothes of today?

Who was the first person to make and eat Cheese? Or cake?

How ideas became widespread

Why the Aztecs didn't have the wheel?

Why Elizabeth I never married?

How accurate historical fiction is?

Then this your thread and we are your people.

PROCEED HISTORY LOVERS

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Weedsnseeds1 · 25/11/2016 22:35

A smattering of words from Hindi and other Indian languages too. Shampoo, pantechnicon, pyjamas and jodhpurs.

Weedsnseeds1 · 25/11/2016 22:36

And pure Somerset- grockle!

cozietoesie · 25/11/2016 22:39

He's in a large group of people still, Company. (Although, these days, inshore waters have less sewage in them so he really 'only' has to worry about chemical run-off and radiation. Grin)

cozietoesie · 25/11/2016 23:16

I'm thinking of the eg fish ponds and rabbit warrens that they used to maintain in medieval times. I suppose it was like a permanent supermarket for them?

Weedsnseeds1 · 25/11/2016 23:39

Never really thought about mackerel eating shit, but mussels filter all sorts of stuff out of water and have been responsible for hepatitis A outbreaks, amongst other things. Mackerel are scombroid fish so can cause a histamine reaction, and also oily so can be high in heavy metals depending where they were fished.

cozietoesie · 25/11/2016 23:46

There wouldn't have been the same range of issues, backaways. My own forebears used to eat plenty fish when they could get them. (Although not mackerel.) I myself used to clamber the rocks to come home with a bucketful of 'winkles' for tea. (I'm not sure what they are called correctly.)

tabulahrasa · 26/11/2016 02:10

"Scottish or Irish Cozie? I find that I can pick out words in Irish but Scottish is harder. That might just be down to pronunciation."

I speak Gaelic, badly, lol I'm not fluent or a native speaker but I did do it through primary and as my second language at secondary instead of French, Irish makes sense to me, the grammar and spelling are similar enough and there's loads of shared words so either reading it or heating it its familiar enough that I can get a sense of what it is.

Welsh is nothing more than pretty sounds and random letters to me.

Thought don't know if that would be different if my Gaelic was better.

saffronwblue · 26/11/2016 02:56

Love this thread - will be back later with more coherent thoughts.

CharliePurple · 26/11/2016 03:16

Fascinating thread, thanks. I have no expertise but an interest in linguistics.

JeanBodel · 26/11/2016 05:50

I appreciate things have moved on but in the spirit of the other thread I have a question.

How did people wake up before alarm clocks? Specifically the servants who had to be up at 4:30am to sort out the fires and all that. In the middle of London in the middle of winter, how did they manage to wake up at the right time?

Spudlet · 26/11/2016 06:19

Babies as alarm clocks?

People used to have two sleeps didn't they - and be up and doing things in between. So maybe they were awake to start poking fires and wotnot anyway?

I don't think our current sleep / work patterns really came in until the Industrial Revolution, and then you could pay a bloke with a pole (and a watch, presumably) to come and bang on the windows and wake you up!

Jabuticaba · 26/11/2016 06:37

Gibraltar was probably taken by Britain because of its location. Probably following a war with Spain at a time when Spain was weakened and Britain had strength. To be fair owning land close to home doesn't seem to have been a great priority for either Britain or Spain Grin

Jabuticaba · 26/11/2016 06:57

My grandfather and great grandparents spoke Yorkshire norse dialect which has probably declined in the 20th century. They had lots of different words for everyday objects and many in common with my Swedish grandmother.
Just looked at a list of words but it's probably no where near complete. Whole sentences could be said and I wouldn't understand any of it.

There's a youtube video from tv in the 70's or 80's with an old man speaking dialect. He says "yowp over t'yat" for leap over the gate. I love that.

isthatasmileoragrimace · 26/11/2016 07:17

Where I live at the moment there's still a lot of this (for want of a better expression) "symbiotic" farming. You see what look like rainforest long houses suspended over paddy fields but when you get close you realise they are hen houses constructed over fish farms (often a type of catfish) predators find it difficult to get up there, the mess is cleared up and I believe that there are fewer parasites in the chickens... and yes to the pig/ long drop thing, semi feral goats etc. We eat the lot!

Lweji · 26/11/2016 07:44

We eat the lot!

Which is fine. Just as long as they're well cooked.

No raw fish, pork, chicken, aquatic plants.
And no eye patches made of aquatic creatures.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 26/11/2016 08:33

We went to a village show in a hamlet in a very isolated Yorkshire Dale and the star turn was an old man giving a speech in Yorkshire dialect.
My grandma (Rotherham) could do it a bit too but not with as many dialect words.

RustyBear · 26/11/2016 08:51

The acquisition of Gibraltar was one of the things that did happen in the reign of Anne (see previous thread re Anne's reign not being eventful).

It was captured by England during the War of the Spanish Succession, which was fought to stop Louis XIV's grandson, Philip of Anjou, taking the Spanish crown. Although Philip did eventually become King of Spain, Louis XIV had to agree to remove him from the line of succession to the French throne and Spain lost most of it's European territories outside Spain itself, including Gibraltar which was ceded to Britain. Portugal did take part in the negotiations which ended with the Treaty of Utrecht, so they did have a hand in agreeing its eventual destiny.

An odd thing about this war was that it was originally started by England and Scotland but ended by Britain because in the meantime the Act of Union had taken place.

Weedsnseeds1 · 26/11/2016 09:13

Winkles is the correct name cozie - the common periwinkle. We used to collect them too, as well as cockles and samphire when it was in season.

isthatasmileoragrimace · 26/11/2016 10:55

Lweji
Ahem... may have occasionally picked up the odd parasite (grim emoticon required)
But am mostly very good. Honest!

Jabuticaba · 26/11/2016 12:48

no eye patches made of aquatic creatures.

Was that a thang?

TipTopTriceratops · 26/11/2016 13:52

How did people wake up before alarm clocks?

Pre- Industrial Revolution, work starting times were much more aligned to sunrise, though people often did have to be at work at or not long after sunrise. Cockerels and other bird and animal sounds, which start a little before that, woke most people up - no double glazing to keep out the noise.

There's a youtube video from tv in the 70's or 80's with an old man speaking dialect. He says "yowp over t'yat" for leap over the gate.
:) Can you remember what the video is called?

Another bit on Arthurian swords - the Lady in the Lake this time. Swords were a common ritual deposit in water around the Iron Age. Later on (Roman, early medieval times) they were quite often randomly found. Nothing especially weird then about a sword turning up in a lake.

Weaving and knitting - yes, on some level I also find it strange that weaving is probably older than knitting (probably because we know weaving only as an industrial process, but knitting as a home based craft) - but when you consider activities like plaiting human hair, or making baskets from reeds, it seems more obvious how creating similar strands of other things came up as an idea. For those who are members of Ravelry, there are some great threads on there about history of knitting and particular knitted garments.
Knitting appears to have been introduced to Britain in the late middle ages (some legends attribute it to Catherine of Aragon's court, and that, known earlier from North Africa and Moorish areas - which is unexpected as in the West it's so associated with colder weather - it would have arrived via the Spanish).

Some other things about knitting:
People were so adept at it they could knit accurately in the dark, or while walking along:
www.theshed.co.uk/oldhandknitters
^Not only was knitting a source of much needed income for the poor (especially in rural communities) but also a craft that brought people together. Moving on rotation from house to house in the evening, knitters (both men and women) would sit in the dark (the candles snuffed out to preserve the wax) and exchange gossip and tell stories. Knitting songs, like sea shanties, were sung to pass the time and encourage the knitters to greater speed.
Wordsworth writes in ‘Michael’, (1800):

‘…..while far into the night
The housewife plied her own peculiar work,
Making the cottage through the silent hours
Murmur as with the sound of summer flies.’

‘For centuries, hand knitting was a way of life for the dalesfolk of Yorkshire and Cumbria. They knitted as they drove the cattle to the fields, as they walked to market, and as they gossiped and sang around the fire on winter evenings. The few pennies they earned from making stockings, jerseys, caps and bonnets were a vital source of extra income.^

This:
www.oldandinteresting.com/default.aspx
www.oldandinteresting.com/sitemap.htm
is a very site for info about household items, housework and crafts in history

if the connection is made between to sewage and infection. The Romans worked out there was a connection, but didn't know the why. Then we lost that and went back to sewers near water.
This is an excellent example of reasons in favour of calling the Dark Ages the Dark Ages - knowledge and technology was lost with the fall of Rome and took hundreds of, sometimes over a thousand years to get practical application again.

ImportSave · 26/11/2016 14:04

Knitting now is seen very much as 'women's work', but for a long time both sexes would knit. My Granda can remember being given knitting to do as a small boy.

TipTopTriceratops · 26/11/2016 14:09

I think it was in the first thread that someone was asking about making clothes before industrial production. This, about improving the accuracy of clothes in re-enactment and observing the differences between contemporary and old clothing, might be of interest (I think the author is Ruth Goodman's husband): www.tudorgroup.co.uk/Articles/Counterblast.html

NotAMammy · 26/11/2016 14:35

re waking up before alarm clocks
As someone else said, a lot of it would be connected to getting up at dawn. I'm not sure about in big houses, but during the industrial revolution you started getting 'knockers up' who would go round knocking on the windows to wake people up in time to start their shift. In Beamish (again) you can see people with the times that they want to be waked at.

TipTopTriceratops when you say hand knitting do you mean using their fingers to knit, or do you mean with needles, just by hand?

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