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What questions do you have about stuff from History, or am I the only one?

975 replies

EverySongbirdSays · 20/11/2016 00:46

Hi all, HQ here. We're moving this thread over to History Club now where Songbird will be starting a Part 2 thread for more History quizzical shenanigans

The main history thing I've been pondering for the last couple of days since the weather shifted is the history of clothes.

So... how did Early Man manage in the winter, how did they make clothes out of animal skin?

After that, I understand that clothes production as we know it today began with the industrial revolution.

But how did people manage for clothes you know before we had cotton or machinery

How/when did we realise you could knit wool to make a jumper?

I'm sorry if it's a bit of a stupid question Blush

Has anyone got any stupid questions I might know the answer to ?

OP posts:
TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 21/11/2016 09:56

'Lots of them had ordinary dressmaking pins rusted into them which the museum staff daren't take out. Obviously the young women had gone to the ball with an unfinished dress. The woman who was showing them to me said she thought that perhaps women feined 'the vapours" because their dresses were falling to pieces.'

That's just BRILLIANT.
A friend of mine went to a Jane Austen ball stapled into her dress because it wasn't finished. She should have just used pins and been dangerously authentic.

chunkymum1 · 21/11/2016 09:56

How did dogs go from threat to pet?

I watched a documentary a few years ago about this. The idea put forward was that (like pps have said) wolves started hanging around human settlements to scavenge. This benefited humans as they cleared away any discarded bits of animals etc (which would have otherwise attracted other scavengers) as well as acting as an early warning signal if predators were approaching. Over the generations the humans and wolves got used to living around each other so the wolves became more domesticated and the humans became less fearful of them. The documentary went on to put forward an idea that living in close proximity to wolves meant that humans did not need such acute sense of smell so evolved to have less of their skull and brain devoted to smell, which made it possible to evolve to be able to make and understand more sophisticated sounds and therefore eventually to speak. Not sure how much real evidence there is for that bit but it's an interesting theory.

MrsWhiteWash · 21/11/2016 10:03

There weren't diplomatic about Elizabeth - having has no Elizabeth first in Scotland so maybe the just didn't think.

I've read English Civil war having it as early as we did - rest of Europe had political changes later - helped us become a world power as things were stable at home.

So I wonder if Charles I first older brother hadn't died suddenly at 18 whether we'd still have had the English civil war. I just wonder what having a different more flexible monarch would have meant no civil war then.

I know English Civil war started in Scotland because Charles I tried to impose religious changes in Scotland and was a very inflexible character.

His dad James I and VI was actually quite a canny politician and Charles II was too - he appear non-threatening as party king and against overwhelming odd got thrown back. So just how much was down to Charles I personality or was it brewing anyway?

Artandco · 21/11/2016 10:05

In terms of heating and being cold.
I was born in the 1980s, so relatively recently. My parents aren't that old. They have never had central heating. We didn't have hot running water until I was 12, only a cold tap. They still to this day only have electricity downstairs at their house, and only heat home using a coal fire ( they still have and use an outdoor coal shed). I remember being frozen at home every winter. The toilet water froze, the windows had ice inside often and our bedding always damp. We were ill as children a lot every winter. I can't believe they still live like it (out of choice, money isn't an issue), and this is why my house is heated 24/7 now at minimum 21degrees.

MrsWhiteWash · 21/11/2016 10:10

thrown back - meant throne there - I always seem to type the wrong one but don't when write by hand.

DonkeyOaty · 21/11/2016 10:12

Quite, Trills.

TaraCarter · 21/11/2016 10:18

Charles has to be Charles III. I've been looking forward to living under the first non-Stuart Charles.

If he picks George as a name, I will become an ardent Republican.

UterusUterusGhali · 21/11/2016 10:20

Marking place as a pop up won't let me read. Angry

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 21/11/2016 10:21

With the second of the two Charleses, maybe it's not so much that Charles II turned out badly, it's more that he's not the sort of king Charles imagines himself being.
I don't think it's entirely clear that Charles II was a Bad King, despite the shagging. People had a nice time and he supported the arts and the Royal Society. Plague and fire weren't his fault.

Trills · 21/11/2016 10:22

Unless you believe that plague and fire were sent by God of of course...

Trills · 21/11/2016 11:05

How about a NEW name that we have never had, huh? Go wild and call a King Matthew or something.

kitsmarch · 21/11/2016 11:20

I'm very late to this but I have to stick my oar in on the Tudor stuff as there is so much false information floating around - largely due to Philippa Gregory's peddling of anecdotes as straight-down-the-line FACT. I find it totally maddening. I get that her books open up history to people and that's fantastic, but so much false information and hearsay is now taken as gospel and it drives me mad.

Firstly, Henry VIII had only one recognised illegitimate son, Henry Fitzroy. The surname was commonly given to all recognised royal bastards (meaning literally son of the king). He was later given the title of Duke of Richmond, which some have seen as a sign of Henry intending to legitimise him but I find that unlikely. The Tudors were a relatively new monarchy and certainly Henry's father, Henry VII, had struggled with establishing the credibility of his claim to the throne during his reign. Henry VIII would have recognised the importance of having a legal son and heir. I think he ennobled Henry Fitzroy as he would be useful in the marriage stakes in spite of his illegitimacy. He could have gone down the John of Gaunt route later down the line, and legitimised him but removed his right to succession, but Henry needed, and was looking for, a legitimate son, born in wedlock, as heir. You only need to look at the marital carnage of his reign to realise how important this was to him.

Phillippa Gregory presents it as gospel that Mary Boleyn's children were Henry VIII's, resulting from her affair with him. I think this is unlikely as Henry did not recognise them and would have had no precedent for not doing so. He recognised his illegitimate son by Elizabeth Blount (Henry Fitzroy). You could suggest a tendency to not recognise royal bastards that were born within wedlock (Mary was married to her husband from 1520 & her daughter & son were born within that marriage) as they already had their father's name, but the blank on gossip /mention in primary sources is telling. I think it would have been well-known and discussed at court and that would have found its way in mention, not least as both children, as cousins of Elizabeth I, had positions of favour in her household and were not unknown and without mention. I also think Henry would have liked it to be known were it true as it would have promoted his virility. Sons/children were a sign of male potency and a sign of God's blessing. Henry had one living daughter and one illegitimate son to show for 11 years of marriage by 1920. I think he would have acknowledged more if he could.

In terms of Anne Boleyn's guilt my take is that the charges were wholly trumped up to enable Henry to marry Jane Seymour, whom he was already having an affair with and had marked as wife number 3. He was with Jane on the day of Anne's execution and married her three or four days later. Anne never saw the execution coming. There was just no precedent for the execution of a queen. Her assumption would have been divorce, removal from court and probably being sequestered to a nunnery. I doubt she would have signed away her daughter's legitimacy if she thought she was going to die anyway. But Henry went for the jugular. Death for treason (which adultery against the king was) was burning at the stake so Henry's commutation to execution by axe (and later to death by sword), was a sign of mercy. Personally I think it was his guilty conscience talking. Katherine Howard, wife number 5, who WAS guilty of adultery and admitted as such (again, that fear of eternal damnation of the soul), got the axe, but Henry knew the charges against Anne were false. Or perhaps by the time he got to wife number 5 he was truly poisoned by his own power and pain? There is no evidence, other than trumped up charges, that George Boleyn and she were guilty of incest and plotting to kill the king. Anne's final confession before she went to the scaffold was to the Constable of the Tower (who was reporting back to Cromwell). She took the sacrament and swore that she had never been unfaithful to the king. I think that's convincing of her innocence.

Speeches on the scaffold were bound up in ritual. They were to be short, acknowledge the mercy and right of the king and to commit themselves to God. Sin was mentioned, not because they were necessarily guilty of the crime they were accused of, but because this was a religious society and confession was seen as your release from eternal damnation; so any sin mentioned was generic. It was all very ritualistic. Anne Boleyn never confessed to adultery, in spite of facing eternal damnation for not doing so. The same with her brother and other gentlemen. Only Mark Smeaton confessed after torture, which frankly was a given (if you ever get cranked on the rack or have your nails pulled out and hot pokers applied to your feet then you'd probably admit to shagging Anne Boleyn to make it stop). A lot has been made about the fact that Smeaton did not rescind his confession (Anne Boleyn is reported to have said "Did he not exonerate me...of the public infamy he laid on me? Alas! I fear his soul will suffer for it") but it's likely that he confessed to make the torture stop and his 'reward' was not a standard traitor's death of being hung, drawn and quartered, but the block and axe. He would have known that to rescind that confession would be to assure his death by HD&Q. As for rescinding his confession on the scaffold, as I mentioned earlier, that just wasn't done. There was a standard protocol and you didn't deviate from it. It seems strange to us but we're not bound by the same social and religious codes.

As for Tudor periods, historians have found mention of some black silk girdle-type structures in Elizabeth's wardrobe inventory that they think was relating to sanitary protection; presumably something to hold a piece of flannel in place. Having said that, Elizabeth's periods were known to be erratic; her washerwomen and serving women were bribed by ambassadors to discover her fertility and the reports ; a lot was riding on whether Elizabeth was able to bear an heir.

I could talk about this stuff for hours.

kitsmarch · 21/11/2016 11:22

1920??! 1520

TheHiphopopotamus · 21/11/2016 11:38

How about a NEW name that we have never had, huh? Go wild and call a King Matthew or something

What about a King Kai? That's always a popular name and would show he's down with the people Wink

enochroot · 21/11/2016 11:42

Anyone here with the stamina for door-stop sized books might enjoy the System Of The World trilogy of novels by Neal Stephenson.
It ranges through the Interregnum to the accession of George II while characters travel the world so it covers topics like Puritanism, science (Isaac Newton and Robert Hooke feature a great deal), Mathematics (Leibnitz also features), steel making, warfare & weaponry, the rise of the Bank of England, royal succession, the colony in Massachussetts, dealing in Amsterdam, the building of St Pauls, medicine, the Royal Mint, Ireland and many other fascinating social matters including sausage skin condoms!

MrsWhiteWash · 21/11/2016 12:01

I knew Mary Boleyn was definitely Henry' mistress first but I thought her first son probably wasn't his.

I thought Ann wasn't unfaithful as all the other charges have subsequently found to be untrue - but I though her brother alluded to Henry being impotent when called before the judges despite an otherwise brilliant defence of himself- and that sealed their fates? Or is that modern myth as well?

LRDtheFeministDragon · 21/11/2016 12:16

I think it would have been odd for Henry to acknowledge a married woman's children as his own. I think we tend to forget he was pretty religious (at least in his early years). Also, he might simply not have known, right?

I remember someone on here saying that the dates don't even add up for the evidence in Anne's trial.

kitsmarch · 21/11/2016 12:17

MrsWhiteWash It seems likely that Henry VIII had problems with potency, not least due to being increasingly overweight. His leg problems would also have contributed, particularly as its condition degenerated and the ulceration increased. Possibly hard to get it up when you're obese, in pain and ingesting 16th century medicine. Some treatments put on his leg included mercury, which would not have helped.

Poor Anne Boleyn. She knew she had to provide the king with a male heir and yet it was clearly not straightforward. She actually miscarried at around 6 months pregnant, shortly after Henry's jousting accident and not long before her arrest. The baby is recorded as male - another 'what if 'for the annals of history. Katherine of Aragon also gave Henry VIII a son. Their first born was a healthy boy who was so robust that his christening robes had to have extra panels sewn in. He died suddenly in his crib when he was a month or so old. He was called Henry.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 21/11/2016 12:23

I don't think he really put on weight until later, though. He looks huge in pictures, but so does everyone else - it's those heavy furs and the fashion for big shoulders.

This is completely out there, so I have no idea if it's rational - but I've just been reading up on the technology for open windows in this period. In about 1490 they're so fashionable that I have read literary texts (sort of like the Shopaholic series today - they name drop everything at great length) that go on and on about the amazement of glass windows that open.

So, I wonder if there was a fashion for draughty houses for a bit? Before that, you didn't want the bloody windows to open, and if you could afford glass you were way ahead of everyone else.

That can't have been great for babies.

kitsmarch · 21/11/2016 12:29

Mary Boleyn married Carew in 1520 & her daughter was born in 1524 & son in 1526. The dates of the affair are not fully known but it seems unlikely that the children would have been conceived with Henry. Henry never acknowledged either of the children and he gave Mary no gifts at the end of the affair, which was customary and would have probably been standard had she had an illegitimate child or children by him.

Mary was also banished from court following her second marriage (it was without permission and deemed socially beneath her) and suffered financially. In her letters asking for help from her family and the king she makes no hint of any special relationship with the king. I'm not sure of the social precedence of this. It could be that it was just not acceptable to mention the illegitimate children you shared, but it's strange how there is no hint at all.

We'll never know for sure but my instinct is that they were not Henry's children. For Phillippa Gregory to trumpet it as fact that they were just gets my goat. Get your facts straight, love. I hate people playing fast and loose with history because it's more 'romantic' or 'juicy'. Gah!

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 21/11/2016 12:32

54" waist by 1535, if my notes are correct.

I think we know his size quite precisely from his surviving armour.

Re George Boleyn mentioning the impotence at his trial, IIRC that is real, but the belief that it is what sealed his fate is a bit of an assumption. I'm sure it didn't help, but I don't think we can assume that if he hadn't said it, it would all have been fine.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 21/11/2016 12:40

I can just about believe Catherine Carey could have been Henry's but I find it very hard to believe Henry Carey was. For the king to have had a son who wasn't ever talked about seems much more of a stretch than a daughter. (Daughters are often overlooked to such a degree that even with women who end up important like Anne Boleyn and Jane Seymour we don't know for sure when they were born, or there are cases like Margaret and Mary Shelton who were thought to have been sisters but now are thought to have been the same person, or the Duke of Norfolk's older daughter Katherine who might have been legitimate or an acknowledged bastard, we just don't know.)

cozietoesie · 21/11/2016 12:41

Light as conspicuous consumption. Good candles were expensive. If you were a peasant you'd likely have gone to bed with the fading of the light in winter - or, if pushed or feeling flushed, have put on some tallow dips if you needed to finish some sewing for example.

There's a quite ludicrous scene in the Tudors where one of Catherine's female attendants is found scrubbing the floor because of 'how they were reduced'. The idea that a grand lady - which she would have been despite attending on a former queen - should be the only servant available to scrub floors seems daft. Catherine would likely still have had scores of warm bodies to do the 'menial tasks' even though she was an 'ex' and not a ruling queen.

And yet she's seen with candles burning everywhere when people come to call. There were a lot of people around mediaeval houses.

(I appreciate that film-makers can't afford all the extras, though.)

LRDtheFeministDragon · 21/11/2016 12:41

Blimey. Ok, I stand corrected.

cozietoesie · 21/11/2016 12:45

flush