Actuarial Studies for a reasonable but not amazing maths student

[Portablepack]

DS is predicted a A in A level maths - looks like he will achieve it (no further maths). He's an all rounder with reasonable ability - average. For his A in maths, he will have worked reasonably hard (other subjects Economics, English). He has applied for economics and also actuarial studies elsewhere and managed to get offers for both (personal statement straddled both well) and now has to decide which to firm. He's prefers actuarial. Leaving aside the debate on whether firms like graduates with exemptions, how good at maths do you have to be to tackle actuarial exams? Looking at the grades which unis accepted students - I see that Bayes will take BBB (spoke to students at open day who secured training contracts in actuary) and uni of Essex as low as CCD. He's very practically minded and says he wants something with a clear end goal - but again don't want life advise for him but just some idea of how good at maths one needs to be? Beyond the scope of his maths teacher to advise apparently.

If he is determined enough, then it's worth going for.

I'd recommend you go on a job board like indeed and set up a weekly alert for all jobs in your geographical area of interest that have the word 'actuary' in them. It will help to give you a sense of what is out there and, just as importantly, the annual recruitment cycle. Some young people don't realise until too late that graduate jobs and internships start being advertised in the Autumn term, so they miss many application deadlines.

@RosesAndHellebores are both telling you it is necessary to be outstanding at maths, not ‘reasonable but not amazing’.
Like another poster, I’ll give up now as you’re not listening.

I got a B at A level maths and am now a qualified actuary. I didnt do an actuarial science degree - I did Maths and Economics as a degree. But in terms of passing actuarial exams, its definitely possible!

@DadDadDad any views?

This is not generally true in my experience. Employers dont want to have to pay a qualified actuary wage to someone with a couple of years experience and only qualified due to the degree. These people are generally not as strong at the actual job as someone who has come in with perhaps a couple of exemptions, taken 3-4 years to qualify while doing then job and then when qualified has job experience as well as the exam qualifications

The thread was about an undergraduate degree in Actuarial Science which, when taken with an MSc in same leads to exemptions from nearly all professional exams. Many mention how difficult the exams are while working full-time as well as the maths complexity. The first is irrelevant to an undergraduate who can devote themselves to study. It's the second consideration that I am trying to probe. I'm asking about the interplay between innate endowment and sustained effort. The evidence is, for example, from Bayes (87% acceptance of BBB) is that 77% of students gain exemptions. The suggestion to combine with another subject at undergrad is an excellent one. However, I'm not ignoring any inputs. I'm listening but I was was looking for some nuanced insight. It's a big decision obvs and DS son is reading all comments with interest.

Not much to add - on a quick skim through here, I think all the important points have been made.

Weirdly, the post @Mumofteenandtween could have been written by me! (Cambridge, 25y+ in profession and all the rest - the only thing I didn't know was the common joke about failed actuaries, but there's some truth to it).

I disagree. What about 87% BBB gaining exemptions from professional exams? Doesn't that point to application?

Many employers hire graduates with exemptions who go on to very successful careers and leadership roles, and have done for 40 years. It’s very rigid thinking to want all trainees with the same number of subject passes to be the same in terms of experience. Mostly expressed by those who (like me) did it ‘the hard way’ and believe any other route to qualification is cheating somehow.

For the OP, actuarial maths is hard. But there is a lot more maths on an actuarial degree than an economics one, so economics might be an unusual choice for someone who thinks they want to be an actuary. He needs something to keep extending his maths - actuarial, maths, physics etc

No one is locked into an actuarial career after an actuarial degree - the graduates we see have strong foundation in maths, programming, modelling and statistics which will support any technical, data based career.

You expect someone to just accept a generic statement like that without any facts or data? What does "outstanding" mean? A poster has just posted that they had a B in maths but are now qualified. What about the Bayes graduates who have B in maths yet have full exemptions? Actuarial science is surely about data and facts.

that was for Alleyooop!
really appreciating the responses here. They are mostly very insightful and DS extends his thanks.

Does he want to go to Uni in Central London? Would he move there or is it commutable?

We are close to central London so he could live at home for any London course.

@Portablepack by all means encourage the lad to do an Actuarial Studies degree but don't necessarily expect it to lead to becoming a qualified Actuary. I imagine the comparator is an Accounting and Finance degree where very few A&F graduates become chartered accountants.

Actuarial work is niche and actuarial professionals tend also to be quite niche. FWIW dd's young man is neuro diverse and has found his people. He qualified with a big accountancy firm and it took some grit and it was facilitated by living at home, being nurtured and seeing dd on weekend evenings only. One of the reasons he got onto the programme is because he also speaks another European language fluently and is therefore a handy addition to the practice. It isn't for the faint hearted.

A dd in my DDs class at primary went to Cambridge for maths and is now Head of Responsible Business for a large insurance company. Trained as an actuary with WTW. Obviously excellent maths skills and broader interests too.

From what I was told by soon to be graduates at Bayes, despite having exemptions they are paid the same as those who join with no exemptions. They also get mini placements during their degree and make connections. I believe there's an exam that you can only do once you are working and have experience so they don't move onto qualified salaries until they have experience and some have outstanding exams that they haven't got exemptions in but they qualify faster overall.

If he does want to be an actuary he could do an apprenticeship instead. My husband qualified that way so he was earning earlier. I know funding has now changed.

I’m an actuary, I’m naturally good at maths so I found A level maths and further maths easy, university level wasn’t difficult, but it sometimes took me 2-3 goes to master something new.

The professional exams are quite hard, especially as you’re working fulltime and studying fulltime, its essentially like having an intense professional job and doing a fulltime degree. So you have to be willing to essentially have no life for quite a few years.

When I think of places I have worked most have preferred maths grads as they tend to have studied a broader range of maths compared to those who study AS at university, trainees also don’t have to then unlearn things that they have been wrongly informed is correct at university.

I believe the funding for apprenticeships at this level has been cut. DS's thinking re an actuarial degree is to avoid having to do the full set of exams while working which I understand is incredibly difficult on top of already difficult exams by any measure.

Not been the experience where I work, but I'm sure everywhere is different.
While exams are useful, the most important thing to working as a qualified actuary is actual experience, and that takes time.

I don't come across many of the students at work who have AS exams. Most are maths or economics grads. Having said that, there is a bonus for employers to those with lots of exemptions from AS degrees in that when they do start work they will be working 5 days a week while all of the other students have a day off a week to study.

I’ve just thought about this and you are right! I can’t thinking a single actuarial science graduate in the trainee / recent qualified range. Which is surprising as our local university does the degree and we are the only actuarial employer in the city. Where did they all go?

We have quite a few in the 5 - 15 years qualified range I think but no young ones.

I’m really surprised!

Actuarial training became available via the actuarial apprenticeship route in 2018, so maybe that changed the range of grads recruited.

Just speculating.

I’m a qualified actuary. In my experience some who do actuarial science at university and have exemptions then find they struggle with the later more wordy exams. This is because they are sitting them earlier in their career than other candidates who will have built up several more years of knowledge and experience through working.

Some people prefer not to take on actuarial science graduates as they will be paid more earlier than others who have been in the job longer.

The actuarial exams are hard. Students will have gone from being one of the best at maths in their school and to ably never failed an exam in their life to then sitting exams that have a pass rate of around 1/3. Everyone will have a first or a 2/1 in a maths subject but most will fail.

Apologies if that sounds pessimistic but he needs to go in with realistic expectations.

it is a great career and if he is very keen to study actuarial maths then I wouldn’t necessarily advise against it.