Art foundation course - London City & Guilds or UAL?

[marvellousjosie]

My daughter has offers to do a one year foundation in art at London City and Guilds and at University of the Arts London. She is torn! Any thoughts or experience to share? She would be living in the London for the first time. Thank you!

[PhotoDad]

Hi OP,

I'm afraid I can't help with personal experience here, but if you don't get (m)any responses, you might want to post on this thread! There are lots of friendly people there.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/higher_education/4795276-art-and-design-at-university-for-past-present-and-future-students-and-parents

[mondaytosunday]

Don't you have to pay for City and Guilds? That would decide it for me. Also I get the impression that C&G is more traditional, especially looking at what they do as degrees (fine art, carving, conservation). However I know someone who did it and enjoyed her time there and went on to Central St Martins to do Fashion.
She did say the majority of Foundation students were from London so not in halls.
UAL has a much larger cohort and half will be international.

[Duchessofmuchness]

As said above I think you pay full tuition fees for C&G and students aren't eligible for student loan for tuition or maintenance. Whereas if your DD is 19 or under the course would be free at UAL and you would only need to fund living expenses. (Ignore that if international student!)

Do UAL still guarantee a place on one of their degree programmes if you complete the foundation with them?

[Cp2324]

Do UAL still guarantee a place on one of their degree programmes if you complete the foundation with them?

Yes, but not necessarily the one you want!

My DC has been on the Foundation at UAL this year. It's been a good year (almost done now; they finish very early). Not sure how much they've been taught in terms of technique but it's certainly been a confidence booster and has turned around their way of working. They pick specialist options sometime before Christmas - and have got offers for every degree they applied for.

Around half the students on the Foundation are "internationals". The rest of them are mainly from the London area but from all corners (some long commutes). A few "live in", but not many as there is no maintenance funding available for a Level 3 course.

Next year, it will be a new course at Lime Grove (Shepherd's Bush), combining the cohorts which were previously split between CSM and Camberwell. I don't know how that's going to work out. Many of the long-standing lecturers are not very happy about it.

[ArtGarfield]

@Cp2324 it is lovely to meet a UAL FAD parent.

Did your child live at home in London and commute in? Did this work out ok when I’m assuming a lot of their friends will be living away at university.

Was your DC at CSM or Lime Grove? Did they find their course friendly?

Did the course take up a lot of time? My DC is interested but will need to keep up a weekend job with perhaps another more substantial job during the vacations

Is your DC staying at UAL or going elsewhere?

Thanks so much for your time.

[Cp2324]

@ArtGarfield

Did your child live at home in London and commute in? Did this work out ok when I’m assuming a lot of their friends will be living away at university.

Yes, stayed at home and commuted. Some home friends are away at uni but some are on gap years, on various courses in London, or a year younger - and one is working full time on an apprenticeship.
Most UAL friends also live at home and are commuting, some quite long distances from suburbs or beyond. (Many international students on the course too, majority from Asia, who must live in uni accommodation but they tend not to mix much with UK students).

Was your DC at CSM or Lime Grove? Did they find their course friendly?
At Camberwell and yes. CSM and Camberwell foundations won't exist from next year - everyone will be on a combined course at Lime Grove. Socialising has been a bit limited by the distance friends live away - all over London and further out into Home Counties.

Did the course take up a lot of time? My DC is interested but will need to keep up a weekend job with perhaps another more substantial job during the vacations
Yes, much more time consuming than anticipated. Three days in college and 2-3 days working on college work. Homework is set whenever there is a day off. Not everyone is so diligent though.

Is your DC staying at UAL or going elsewhere?
No, doesn't want to go to uni in their home city.

[ArtGarfield]

Thanks so much @Cp2324 . Such useful responses.

Interesting to hear what I suspected, that socialising is difficult due to commutes, that the international students don’t mix and that there will be a full five days of work ( at least).

All useful intel.

[artant]

I’ve heard good things about the C&G course from people who’ve taught on it (at least one also teaching at UAL) but I think it’s expensive and it is a fairly traditional institution (but that makes it absolutely right for some). How the UAL FAD will work combined at Lime Grove is anyone’s guess.

[artant]

And FAD is hard work but exciting. For many students it’s the year when everything changes.

[Bougis123]

My daughter's in the same position. C&G and UAL seem almost opposite, both with pros and cons. It's very hard to decide. Any other insights gratefully accepted!

[HJB73]

Hi there my daughter also has an offer for FAD at UAL. She was all set to do it at Manchester Met but when the London offer came in she jumped at it. I feel surprisingly nervous about her living in London and being isolated.

[ArtGarfield]

I think the courses are the same at UAL and Manchester Met.

Most people do the FAD close to home so they can live at home as there are no maintenance loans for FAD. If money is no object I’m sure she’ll have a nice time in London.

[artant]

I’m sure she’ll have a great year and return to you more grown up than you ever expected!

The UAL courses have always been very big and will, I would think, be even bigger now they’re consolidating at Lime Grove. While it can be easy to get lost on a very big course, one thing that makes a difference is pathway group sizes and UAL has tended to keep those small enough for tutors to get to know the students properly (and, crucially for students to get to know one another) and for one tutor a day to be enough in the studio. The pathway groups are pretty tightly focussed (so for Fine Art, for instance, separate groups for different disciplines rather than a big group doing lots of different things).

I don’t know about the MMU FAD but I’d guess student numbers are in the low hundreds (bigger than a local FE college so a wider range of interests, opinions, facilities etc but smaller than UAL). She’d have a great time there too but this way she gets to find her feet in a new city.

[HJB73]

@ArtGarfield

I think the courses are the same at UAL and Manchester Met.

Most people do the FAD close to home so they can live at home as there are no maintenance loans for FAD. If money is no object I’m sure she’ll have a nice time in London.

Thanks is that right that you can’t get a maintenance loan for FAD? That would be a dealbreaker. I thought you could apply for up to 4 years for foundation and UG loans?

[HJB73]

@artant

I’m sure she’ll have a great year and return to you more grown up than you ever expected!

The UAL courses have always been very big and will, I would think, be even bigger now they’re consolidating at Lime Grove. While it can be easy to get lost on a very big course, one thing that makes a difference is pathway group sizes and UAL has tended to keep those small enough for tutors to get to know the students properly (and, crucially for students to get to know one another) and for one tutor a day to be enough in the studio. The pathway groups are pretty tightly focussed (so for Fine Art, for instance, separate groups for different disciplines rather than a big group doing lots of different things).

I don’t know about the MMU FAD but I’d guess student numbers are in the low hundreds (bigger than a local FE college so a wider range of interests, opinions, facilities etc but smaller than UAL). She’d have a great time there too but this way she gets to find her feet in a new city.

Thanks for the reassurance. I have calmed down in the last 24 hours but if it’s right that we can’t apply for a maintenance loan from SLC that would be an issue.

[ArtGarfield]

You can only get maintenance loans for undergraduate courses higher education , not Further Education .

Look at the course page for the courses your DD has applied to and it will have a section on fees and funding.

is the UAL course at UAL this one ? (As opposed to a course accredited by UAL but taught in another institution.

https://www.arts.ac.uk/subjects/communication-and-graphic-design/pre-degree-courses/ual-foundation-diploma-in-art-and-design

if so it’s pre degree level 3. That’s the same as A levels and is Further Education.

Has your DD applied straight for degrees too? Lots of unis don’t ask for art foundations anymore.

The FAD won’t just be at Line Grove, it will still be partly at Archway too. For one more year at least. So factor in travel too.

[HJB73]

Thanks you. It is the UAL London one. Their course pages are not clear about FAD funding (or I missed it) but I see Loughborough has a clearer statement which says the same as you are. Oh dear :(

[artant]

It’s because it’s FE that it’s free for under 19s but that does mean no access to the student loan system.

I’m sure staying at home is disappointing but I’d expect the MMU course to be great and wherever she is the FAD year is transformative.

[artant]

Ooh, didn’t know the move to Lime Grove was only for some. The other thing to factor in in terms of travel is that the UAL libraries are in various different parts of London. I know the foundation courses gave always been good but that doesn’t seem ideal to me.

[PhotoDad]

Hi @HJB73 (and others), the confusion is that "Foundation" can mean "Foundation in Art and Design" which is a standalone course so isn't counted as degree-level, and therefore doesn't get funding, or "Foundation Year of a 4-year degree" which counts as degree-level and does get funding. It would be much clearer if one of them were called something else, but both paths have long traditions!

[HJB73]

@artant

Ooh, didn’t know the move to Lime Grove was only for some. The other thing to factor in in terms of travel is that the UAL libraries are in various different parts of London. I know the foundation courses gave always been good but that doesn’t seem ideal to me.

Yes it could be a wobbly first year of the new system. I feel like an idiot for not knowing the rules about maintenance grants, but I’m glad you alerted me.

[ArtGarfield]

It took me a while to work out which type of foundation was which. I started out asking questions on the wonderful MN art HE threads and went off to dig about to learn about funding. It’s utterly confusing and I agree that some institution websites are more accessible than others. You’re right, UALs website makes a lot of assumptions about knowledge of the system.

@artant I swear the split between Archway and Lime Grove wasn’t published when I last looked.

If you live in Manchester and she’s got into Manchester then it’s a year at home to save but also a wonderful opportunity to explore and experiment. And maybe go to London for a degree.

[HJB73]

@ArtGarfield

It took me a while to work out which type of foundation was which. I started out asking questions on the wonderful MN art HE threads and went off to dig about to learn about funding. It’s utterly confusing and I agree that some institution websites are more accessible than others. You’re right, UALs website makes a lot of assumptions about knowledge of the system.

@artant I swear the split between Archway and Lime Grove wasn’t published when I last looked.

If you live in Manchester and she’s got into Manchester then it’s a year at home to save but also a wonderful opportunity to explore and experiment. And maybe go to London for a degree.

Thanks guys - I’m sure she’ll do just that

[artant]

@ArtGarfield I don’t recall it being mentioned when I was chatting to a friend who teaches on one of the current UAL FAD courses. I wonder what’s changed!

A lot of my students were set on London for BA but honestly having so much going on can be a distraction and (though there are some great courses in London) it can be better to do undergrad elsewhere and head to London for an MA/MFA.

[mondaytosunday]

The move to Lime Grove was certainly not talked about at all when my DD applied (though her cycle - now - it would not have moved yet). It was all about the dedicated building (Camberwell). It was only a rumour I heard and I was like what - that puts a whole new spin on it! But she chose elsewhere so not relevant anyway.
UAL was the only open day we went to that had a recruitment woman speak - not the head of the department. Her enthusiasm was for the brand, not so much the actual course was my impression.
I don't agree about the 'distraction' of London @artant. My DD and her mates often go off after classes to take advantage of the free talks and art classes at the various museums, plus the latest exhibits. She's been exposed to so much more than might be available elsewhere. I would have thought access to the wealth of art and design would be a real draw.