Studying Art / Fine Art at university

[ArtyMom]

DS17 intends to do an Art Foundation course after his A-levels. That will be in London as we live there. Plenty of choice.

If he decides to go on and do further Art study after that, he's keen to go away (leave London) so at that point we'd be looking at art schools / universities outside of London and the SE. Wants to experience life in another city and as part of a big (varied) university.

I've noticed that some of the locations listed quite high the league tables for Art are post-'92 universities eg Bournemouth, Trinity St David Swansea. Is a degree from a subject-respected post '92 more, or less, prestigious, than one from a traditionally high-performing RG university like Newcastle, Edinburgh or Leeds?

If it helps, I think he'd be looking more in the direction of traditional painting and some academic art history modules, rather than somewhere that is going to encourage him to be wacky and very conceptual (as that's just not him).

Would be grateful for pointers. I don't know anything about the art world; he keeps asking my opinion and I just don't know what to say!!! His school is high performing but churns out mostly medics, lawyers and engineers; they're not so good at advising for Art!

Reading all these comments about what people go onto do after their art degree. It may be worth looking at how much the different colleges courses prepare their students for life beyond their degree - on my course it was very much go the the royal college of art or take a post grad teaching course. I don't remember getting any support after my course except I was given a few names of designers to go and see. So

it may be useful to check out advice and support beyond the degree. Where I now live the college has converted a building into studios for their post degree students to use as well as having exhibition space etc

Haha, that's what I mean though, if you meet these art grads in a teaching context it means you're just meeting art grads who went on to teach! :)
All the ones who go on to do other things are elsewhere!

@Cyberworrier. When left college I'd already worked out that your parents financial situation had a bearing on the decisions you made about life beyond the degree. I got offered a place at the Royal College but couldn't afford to take it. I did teacher training because I couldn't think of what else to do and people told me it was a good thing to do. I had the idea that I could support myself through teaching and do my art at the same time. This probably works for some people but not for me. I felt torn between the two the whole time. I didn't enjoy teaching or teachers. I did enjoy the kids though. I had a regular salary and a pension.

Completely agree that parents finances have an impact- more so now than ever I imagine. The internships etc that many careers in the arts require are easier if you have a financial support. And many would still say that the arts are disproportionately upper/ middle class - networking is a big part of it, as well as confidence.

My nieces loan covers her internship I guess that only works if you do an internship where your student flatshare is. The ones with rich parents will go further afield no doubt.

Artists have a calling - they can't not paint/sculpt whatever. I loved drawing but realised early on I wasn't talented enough nor driven enough. So I did a more vocational graphic design degree and worked in the art department in publishing.
If someone is really passionate about their art and choose to go do a fine art degree that's great, but it will be extremely hard to make a living just doing their own art. But saying oh they can just do design - no, creating something to someone else's specs is not art.
But those who do an English degree do... what? Write? History degree graduates become historians? Geography degree become geographers? Generally not.

Creating designs isn’t art. I agree.

But creating designs makes you pretty employable.

Fine Art doesn’t.

@ArtyMom

Sorry to revive an old thread, but I've just stumbled across this! OP, your DS might decide during the foundation year that Fine Art isn't the right path. There are also a lot of more design-based courses within the art world, often taught at former technical schools that might or might not also be art schools, but have been absorbed into universities now. These tend to be small and specialised, and league tables don't seem to be a lot of use as they merge together various different subjects. However, sites like "Discover Uni" let you look at stats at the level of individual courses. This is especially true if he doesn't like the "conceptual" side of things!

Perfectly willing to be corrected here; this is just based on my recent research. My DD already knows that she likes "traditional" drawing and painting, and is starting an Illustration course this coming September. (Just for variety, it's at an art school which grew a university rather than vice versa!)

Almost all the Fine Art graduates I know have decent careers in different creative areas and not all in teaching (although some are). The odd one went into something "sensible" like IT or Insurance but their Fine Art degree didn't hold them back. I dont know any who have major regrets.

Hi - can I ask, has she felt she is actually taught anything at Camberwell? (or anyone else on this thread with children actually doing fine art, please feel free to chip in!) My Daughter is at Bath Spa curently and despairing as there is very little by way of teaching and it's all 'do your own thing, explore, be creative' but no skills taught whatsoever and very little guidance. She's wondering whether to look elsewhere but also not sure if this is just what Fine Art is like everywhere!

@McSweeney sorry to hear that, is your DD doing fine art? A friend's DC is at Falmouth and they couldn't be happier with their course.

Yes, fine art. Funnily her other offer was Falmouth but she wasn’t sure about it being so small and quite remote. Does your friend’s child rate the teaching/ support?

@McSweeney they do. Does your DD know what she would like to learn or be taught? It might be worth your her contacting Falmouth with some specific questions.

Fine Art is a very self-motivated and self-directed course in the UK. In the US, it is taught in a much more prescriptive manner, with modules on colour theory, etc, etc- and little studio time and much less emphasis on developing your own practise at BA level.
I would advise your daughter to sign up for as many tutorials from visiting tutors as possible, attend as many lectures, seminars and crits as possible, both at uni and elsewhere, if this is not what interests her. See if she can attend those from other courses at UAl if she fancies.
But essentially- Fine Art is not a very “taught” subject in the UK. She could try to ask for more tutorials if that’s what she wants- and get creative in accessing the kind of learning she wants, perhaps another part of UAL does workshops for particular skills she would find useful. Also, If she wants to learn how to make gesso the traditional way, she should have a go! Etc.

I did a fine art degree as a mature student at Central Saint Martins and just before that I did a BTEC in multimedia design (graphic design, video editing and web design).

My paintings are collected all over the world from New York to Hong Kong and I used my design skills to get jobs in media and marketing.

At the moment I work part-time as a Senior Marketing Manager designing websites, leaflets/posters and social media campaigns and I run my freelance art practice the rest of the time.

I am very happy that way and enjoy doing work which is creative all around.

Never spent a day teaching in my entire life...

Creative careers can be tough but they are also really enjoyable.I would not want to be an accountant/lawyer/doctor/work in finance for all the money in the world...

Thanks all - that’s confirming to some extent what I had thought, that a lot of self motivation and self direction is necessary and Fine Art just is less taught than you would expect. Hard for a somewhat ADD and socially anxious 20 year old as it means being proactive and reaching out to tutors… I do wonder if something like a B Tech or apprenticeship in design might suit her character better but we’ll see how it goes.

My niece is at Camberwell and it is self directed but very supported. She has social anxiety but on those kind of courses ypu do find your tribe and shes lived with the same group all the way through. She has managed London with just working through the holidays. I have no clue what her plans are when she finishes this year but I imagine it will be in London at first. Shes loved it.

Thanks for replying. I think we’ll hold fire for a bit and see how it goes but Camberwell is definitely on the list for possible alternatives.

@McSweeney
If some of your daughters issues with the course are the lack of direction, I’m not sure whether changing to another Fine Art course would help that. I know some people who transferred away from Camberwell for similar reasons. (Not to diss Camberwell, in fact I know some of the teaching staff there and have a lot of time for them).
If your daughter is really unhappy, I guess she needs to think about what it is- is it the course, the university, doing art?
If she finds Fine Art hard because of lack of direction, perhaps she’d prefer Illustration or Graphic Design, more projects and taught skills. University is so expensive these days, if the course isn’t working for her, I would investigate if she can transfer to a parallel course either at same Uni or different.

@Cyberworrier yes, I am wondering that, but want to give her a bit longer to see if things improve. She was quite ill first term so that set her back a bit. I am guessing you are an academic or have links to UAL. One of the thing Bath Spa prides itself on is its technical workshops and we have tried to encourage her to explore them but tbh the technicians are quite variable in their attitude. Painting one has told students ‘Come and ask me if you have a specific issue but I’m not here to teach you to paint’ - metal work was asked by a student ‘I’d like to explore working in metal but I know nothing, can you give me a starter project?’ And was pointed to a pile of scrap metal and told- you can play around with that, see how you go’… The print technician is brilliant and runs courses on the various methods but Daughter is not interested in printmaking sadly!

Yes, I’ll keep it vague but yes v familiar with UAL and other art schools.

The metal workshop sounds fairly standard to be honest! It’s really not a technician- or a tutor’s- role to provide students with ideas or stimuli for projects.

At BA level, a student should be developing their own voice and experimenting with their own ideas.

I’m sorry to hear your daughter hasn’t been well, I hope she’s feeling better now?

A technician will be able to help with particular skills/methods. For example, I did a sculpture workshop when I was a student where we were given scrap wood, plaster of Paris and left to get on with it. It was about experimenting/developing our own ideas.
Similarly, with painting, it’s very unlikely in UK art schools for it to be formally taught, unless you go to a private old school place in west london/Tuscany to pay to be taught portraiture or still life. You’re expected to practise and develop your own skills, according to your own interests.

Given the breadth of contemporary art, it would be impossible to teach all skills/media, even painting- would you teach realism or abstraction etc? So UK schools more focus on students developing their own creativity and critical skills- being able to develop their own practise and improve upon it through tutorials and crits with other students.

Fine Art is a challenging course for many and the lack of directed time can be difficult for many different personality types- from straight A high achieving types to laid back folk. I hope if your daughter does want to pursue making art she can find the confidence to make it work for her, however that is.

Someone once said to me when I was on my BA, it doesn’t matter what your thing is, I just want to feel convinced that you utterly believe in it- whether it’s sculpted self portraits, paintings of trees- whatever.

Thanks @Cyberworrier - really helpful context for us (aged Ps) we are both ex-academics but in the social sciences which is very different so find it quite hard not to question why there are not more tutorials/ taught sessions! I am sitting on my hands atm and trying to just encourage her to get stuck in so what you say helps with feeling maybe she will somehow find a way through! But as you say, if she is still floundering in a few months maybe a more prescriptive design type course would be better. Thanks so much for taking the time! (And yes, she’s better - wiped out with glandular fever for the first term so just getting back on her feet really)

My daughter is not out of school yet but even she has said they don't teach technique there - she was told to just experiment with oils for example but a lesson on mixing and using the right thinner and how to prep the canvas would have been useful! She has turned to YouTube for some tutorials on how to use various media which is disappointing. She's not looking for creative input just to be taught some skills to realise her ideas.

Hi @McSweeney, I think that @Cyberworrier has given excellent advice.

From the other side of the art/design fence, my DD struggled with the lack of guidance and instruction during (Fine) Art A-level and knew that she wanted to learn skills and draw a lot, so is currently studying illustration.

At her place, they have three teaching/crit sessions a week (observational/life drawing, digital/animation, printmaking) and then an assignment for each module with a one-week deadline which involves using the new skills. It is incredibly structured and she has been taught a vast amount by lecturers and technicians. Does that sound appealing? I wonder if there is a course out there which is halfway between the two extremes.

This is bad teaching.

I used to teach A level art in a school that got some of the best results in the country. Art needs to be taught, it isn’t just about experimenting.

If l was introducing a new media, then there would be a skills workshop on it. The first term of 6th form was all taught structured skills workshops. This gave them the tools to do the experimentation.

Would someone expect to read a book and the experiment with writing a story with no guidelines? Art has a technical language that needs to be fully taught. This is why so many kids think they’re crap at art. They aren’t actually taught it. Drawing, materials, perspective, portraits, landscape, textiles, painting, are learnt skills. I used to teach so many kids who would say ‘but l thought l was crap at art but I’m not’

l used to ask them what they drew in primary school. Castles and Romans were akways popular answers. How the fuck does an 8 year old draw a Roman army🤷🏼‍♀️