How do you feel about unconditional offers?

[verticality]

I'd be really interested to get views on this! Do you see unconditional offers as a stress-relieving positive, or as a sign that institutions are desperate and grabby?

I work in a RG university that doesn't offer unconditional offers. This is not something we have any control over in departments - it's a policy that is centrally set. Many other universities in the same disciplinary field do make unconditional offers, and we've noticed a slight drop-off in the number of acceptances we've had this year, with some of those students opting to take up an unconditional offer at a rival institution, despite the fact that we score more highly as a department on research, student satisfaction etc. My tentative hunch is that this is possibly a direct result of this policy (though of course there are many factors in a big decision like this!).

I was wondering about your perceptions as parents. What are the pros and cons? What should we be thinking about in relation to this policy?

I don't really have any strong feelings, btw - it would just be really helpful to canvas your opinions so that I can get a sense of how this feels from the 'other' end. We really just want to develop a policy that works for students, at the end of the day.

[IHaveBrilloHair]

Yes, I think that's why DD'S bf got one for Glasgow, he got 5 A's at higher in 5th year, he did go on to get 2A's and 2C's at Advanced higher.

[ArtieFufkinPolymerRecords]

As others have said, I think higher ranking universities that offer them to pupils predicted AAA are doing it to secure top quality students, who might otherwise have chosen other similar ranking universities, and they are unlikely to stop trying and come out with much lower grades. Back in my day (1980s), I knew people who were offered EE by Oxford, so not much different.

[SoonerthanIthought]

Are all US university offers effectively UCs - based on the SATs/refs/interview, and then there is no requirement to get any particular marks on graduating from high school?

I wonder if English students are more likely to accept UCs now that they mostly no longer have AS levels (realise its different in Scotland and Wales - not sure about NI). It is scary - no externally moderated indication of how good you are for two years, and no marks to 'bank'.
In the days of AS you could be in a position where it could be very difficult to fail the A level altogether, if you'd already got, say, 90% at AS. Now everything riding on two or three two hour exams at the end of two years - I can see why a UC might be tempting for the very hard working as well as the less so!

[SirTobyBelch]

As others have said, I think higher ranking universities that offer them to pupils predicted AAA are doing it to secure top quality students, who might otherwise have chosen other similar ranking universities, and they are unlikely to stop trying and come out with much lower grades.

This is what the universities say, but it's nonsense. The fact that they are predicted AAA doesn't mean anything, anyway. And students with unrealistic AAA predictions are no more likely to work hard (or to achieve high grades) than people with BBB predictions. Many schools provide the predictions that the students require to be considered for their chosen course. In fact, from going through this year's results for our offer-holders over the past couple of days, I'd say the majority do.

I don't blame schools for this, by the way. If universities are going to make judgements on the basis of made-up grades and then take large numbers of students who don't meet their offer conditions anyway, why shouldn't schools give their students the most favourable predictions possible? If I were a teacher who knew that a university would not consider applicants with BBC predictions for a particular course but would then take people with CCD once results come out, I'd want to give a likely CCC student a BBB prediction.

[boys3]

Hand up here, DS2 off next month with effectively an unconditional offer. However as he applied post A levels (eg with results known) I'm sure sure what other type of offers he could have received - beyond any rejections of course.

I think the point about the almost all or nothing nature now that AS is no more (in England at least) can however make a genuine UC an enticing prospect. DS1 applying five or so years back and with the highest possible predictions did get one from a fairly well regarded Uni - did not take it as either firm or insurance, but with AS in hand he he knew that it would take something truly catastrophic to drop below AAA.

If as back then maybe a couple of thousand UCs at most are being offered out then possibly a more acceptable situation. Now they are in the high tens of thousands it seems in the main no more than a bums on seats ploy. I'd concur with Bubbles point about over expanding numbers.

For all those fine words would I try to dissuade Ds3 who starts sixth form next month should he get one from a reasonably decent Uni that he really liked and a course he wanted to do? I'm not convinced that I would.

[boys3]

sure sure what other type of offers ??????

not sure :)

[Alliumlove]

I'm Scottish, and so see them as completely normal. However my DC are English, and DD1 turned one down from a highly respected course because she felt it meant it would be 'too easy to get in, so full of rubbish people'. That was madness to me, because to even get an unconditional, she needed to have A* predicted (which she got). It would have taken so much stress off her, and I really wish they were more socially acceptable in England.

That said, with AS Levels now all but gone, I cannot see how they will work effectively going forward. I overheard two girls from what sounded like a private school chatting when waiting for an open day even to start, and one of them was talking about how she had been predicted a C for one of her subjects, and was glad it wasn't a D, because they would never change a D prediction up to an A, but they had promised they would "after my parents had a chat" from a C. I would worry that at some schools, that would become more common.

[BubblesBuddy]

I understand many RG universities have curtailed their use since the name and shame list. Notably Birmingham and Nottingham. RGs will try and reel in Oxbridge candidates. All want bums on seats.

When I was at school unconditional was unheard of. You got your offer and you needed to get the grades. Which of course were not ludicrously high even for RG or red bricks as we used to call them. I do agree that degrees should be available to those well qualified to do them, but the number of degrees now that are unnecessary is just ludicrous and doesn’t make for a better workforce. Just a more expensively educated one that results in a grad tax.

There simply needs to be a scaling down of courses and the easiest way to do this is that courses at universities that were colleges of PE, Teacher Training and HE should be scrutinised and removed if too many don’t graduate or don’t get suitable jobs or the courses take on the lowest qualified students. Just call the courses what they are: HND level or similar. There needs to be a recalibration. Many more DC need to work and study at the same time not be used as bums on seats to keep lecturers in jobs.

[BubblesBuddy]

So do some universities give unconditionals to all who have A predictions? How do you know the A prediction was the trigger? All schools might as well give DC A* predictions and then DC will all get into the best courses on unconditionals and work with similarly rubbish people (how snobby is that?)

[SoonerthanIthought]

I thought Birmingham had said they were carrying on with UCs, despite the report of government criticism? Nottingham I had heard decided to stop.

The review into whether students should apply post A level is due to report in April, isn't it? If that change happened the UC issue would be no more. (But I doubt that it will. Too difficult for the univs who think they need to interview and have extra tests, to cram all that in after A level results. Whether they do in fact need to interview is another question of course.)

[Boyskeepswinging]

Bubbles they will also look at GCSE results and any relevant extra curriculars eg Maths Olympiad, National Youth Orchestra etc depending on the degree. Some courses interview/audition and will make an unconditional offer based on an outstanding performance.

I'm in my fifties and in my day uni's gave out Unconditional offers to high flyers. That's nothing new. Every uni wants the best students. What is new is the bums on seats approach, which is a million miles away.

[ZandathePanda]

Dd’s friendship group (5 other girls, 1 boy) have all got unconditionals. At least one girl could get much better than the grades she ‘needed’ for the uni. But she liked the course there and they wined and dined her. They will be lucky to have her.
My Dd needs high grades to get to her firm. She felt a bit secluded during revision as her friends had no pressure.

[Boyskeepswinging]

Sooner how would you select students for a practical music degree if you didn't audition them?

And how would you determine how to rank literally hundreds of Maths applicants with exactly the same predictions/ results without additional tests?

[uzfrdiop]

any relevant extra curriculars eg Maths Olympiad, National Youth Orchestra etc depending on the degree

Maths Olympiad would only be relevant for Oxbridge Maths, and perhaps Imperial Maths. Everybody else makes offers for Maths based only on predicted grades & tests such as MAT/STEP etc.

I don't believe that anyone outside Oxbridge and Imperial interviews for Maths - certainly those handing out unconditionals don't (& are well below the level where high performance in Maths Olympiad would be relevant).

And how would you determine how to rank literally hundreds of Maths applicants with exactly the same predictions/ results without additional tests?

Well, apart from Oxbridge and a handful of other places, you literally don't need to: you just make offers at the right level to all of them, because there are more than enough places to go around. Students can only accept one offer and there aren't that many people who are going to get A stars in Maths and FM. Only the top 5 or so places actually expect such grades; for the rest one A star would be sufficient. I don't think any of the places that want one A star for Maths are giving out unconditionals - it is the next level down that are doing this.

[Witchend]

I'm not sure. I had 3 offers which we referred to as "unconditional", in reality EE, because I think you needed that as a minimum to get the grant.

One I received before I'd even got the acknowledgement from UCAS. Only thing that did was convinced me that if they were that desperate to have me I was probably better to retake and reapply.
One was Oxford, who gave unconditionals if you did the exam.
Other was Cardiff who basically (as far as I could tell) did a sell day very early (I think it was early November) of top achievers and then gave some of them a EE offer. It was (to my mind) a clever move. I would almost certainly have put them as insurance. They might well get a number of people who just missed their firm who wouldn't otherwise have put them as insurance.

I don't feel that for me it made any difference to the amount of work I put in for A-levels but it did mean I felt much more relaxed about the results, and also knew where I was going, which, for me, made me work better as I am always better when feeling settled.

However I know that dd feels very anti, especially the unconditional if firmed. She feels that people do feel pressurised to put them down when they wouldn't otherwise have chosen them.
There also does seem to be evidence that people who get them disproportionally get lower grades than expected.
However you would have to throw into that that someone who felt they weren't going to get their grades might be disproportionally inclined to choose it. Also those who would like to be a bit lazy may also be more inclined to choose an UIF offer.


I think there probably is a place for them. However maybe they should be more targeted as the Cardiff ones. Difficult to target effectively though without interviewing and relatively few seem to interview.

I also will add in that the level of offers has, for whatever reason, generally gone up. I applied for the same subject as dd1. Some of the universities were the same, but the requirements are at least one level up. For example, one we both applied for gave A A A to her (which is their standard offer) whereas I got AAB (no A); another I had BBB offer and she had AAA.


I do think that doing conditional if firmed-or indeed any incentive to firm should be stamped out. It isn't fair to put that pressure on students.

It would be interesting to also see what proportional of people who got UIF drop out early. Either because they haven't achieved the grades and are struggling, or because it wasn't really the place they wanted to go and when they get there they're disappointed.

[justasking111]

We schlepped around unis. DS had his heart set on one after spending a day there. Two weeks later he received an unconditional offer. He then worked his socks off, his teachers were amazed, they anticipate he will actually get more points than he needs for the course.

I really do not think you can generalise about this.

[Piggywaspushed]

It would be interesting to also see what proportional of people who got UIF drop out early

I did find this data on a previous thread about this.(There have been many...) but doubt I could find it again. There is , indeed ,a highish dropout rate. But I think it is v hard to prove causation with any of this.

DS's offers were BBC , BBC (reduced to CCD after a scholarship exam) , BCC , UiF and UiF . He went for one of the UiFs in the end. He wasn't massively sold on anywhere he looked at, to the extent that it made a huge difference (the one he was adamant he was not going to was the CCD Offer). The one he wanted the most was the BCC but it was accommodation issues that led him to ditch that, not the offer. He is now sitting on an unconditional. I don't think poor exam results will be because of that, though. All the courses he applied to are now in clearing.

[oneteen]

It's highly dependent on the course and the student.

IMO - I feel that UC's are right for high performing DC at competitive UNi's ( who will remain motivated). I think they are wrong at enticing DC who may struggle with obtaining course grades (that's just getting bums on seats).

[SoonerthanIthought]

Ah, that is a good point about the music auditions - could students send in audition tapes/dvds, or are they not an accurate way of assessing talent/potential etc (can you tell I don't know much about music performance!?). Tapes rather than 'live' auditions would probably speed the process up, I suppose. Or maybe practical music courses have small enough numbers of applicants that auditions could be fitted in after results? Drama as well of course is one where they would need to audition .

Maths - I suppose universities could run the tests before the A level results are out, for the students who thought they might be applying to the relevant universities?

Anyway, no doubt the review of whether to go for post results applications will look at all these things! It is interesting that afaik students in some other European countries apply after results - so the practicalities may turn out to be surmountable!

[Boyskeepswinging]

A level results are terribly late compared to other countries so it's less time pressured for them to do post results offers.

And going back to my earlier point about Maths Olympiads I was actually thinking about a broader range of courses that would be impressed by that sort of ability. There are many, many courses out there that are eager to attract great mathematicians. And many great mathematicians who want to study something other than single honours Maths.

[oneteen]

@boyskeepswinging - There are quite a few Olympiads. My daughter did very well in the recent Biology one ...I do think they ADD value..in terms of they seem to show the DC who have genuine talent rather than ROTA learning (e.g. DD was in set 3 for Biology for GCSE, achieved an A* but performed in the top 3 girls in the recent Olympiad - in a very big cohort studying Biology ). If I was in Uni Admissions I would give extra credence to these competitions.

[Torridon19]

The students who get in with lower grades, and sit the first year of Uni, may get a shock not in that year, but in second year. The "pass" grades in first year for subjects can, on the face of it, be ludicrous. A top RG Uni I'm going to has pass rates for the first year subjects from C3 to, wait for it, D3 in that first year. So - unless you rob a bank and are banged up, it's safe to say anyone can complete the First year, with little attrition. It's Second year when reality starts to bite, and one actually has to start producing semi-decent academic work to keep up. And your marks then start to count.....The students with UC offers who took their foot off the pedal for 6 months at school, plus most of the First year at Uni, get a real academic culture shock, that some don't survive/cope with...just my personal experience...

[SoonerthanIthought]

"A level results are terribly late compared to other countries so it's less time pressured for them to do post results offers."

That is a very interesting point - I wonder if they finish the exams earlier, or they're marked faster? IBAC exams certainly seem to finish earlier. That might be the route through - slightly less content in the A levels, earlier exams, earlier results.

[Oldstyle]

I left HE some years ago but we used to give UC offers to students who interviewed brilliantly (we interviewed everyone). There's clear evidence that A-level results don't act as predictors of final degree awards so it seemed mad to use those as the filter. If we felt the person had a great attitude, understood what was on offer, and would be an asset to the course we would take them with open arms. I do know that some teachers were understandably irritated by this, and that some prospective students/parents probably assumed that we were desperate (we weren't). Not saying it was the right approach but I certainly don't think the deification of grades is either. Plus, arguably, this privileges the privileged.

[Maismoo]

I got an unconditional offer for university this year.

I was one of the only ones in my course to receive one due to the quality of my portfolio and interview.

For me, I've never been very good at exams and writing down what I know but have the knowledge in my head. So getting the unconditional gave me the opportunity to work hard but also not push myself beyond belief to gain the grades needed. I'd like to add I'm autistic and anxiety/stress is a huge part of my life, so by not having the extra stress of having to perform my best, as I knew whatever I get I'll be good, has (I believe) let me do my best.