The upcoming strikes

[mrsrhodgilbert]

I have a dd in her third year at a university where there will be strike action for the next four weeks starting on Thursday. I've only been aware of this for a few days and I've seen nothing about it in the press. Dd doesn't yet know how it will affect her, she has one lecturer who covers her two modules this term and hasn't asked her if she will be striking. Literature from the university says they can ask their lecturers if they will be striking but the lecturer doesn't have to answer, so all a bit uncertain.

I'm just interested to know what your dc have been told if anything and what might happen re completing final modules without teaching and indeed if final exams could be cancelled. In that case what would happen?

[homebythesea]

So the suggested compromise is a tapering effect while moving between schemes? I assume new members have not been able to join for a while? How long would the transition last for? Would there be the opportunity to start paying into the new scheme at the same time as the tapering transition period? I’m afraid my small brain doesn’t understand the oxbridge/borrowing point. I know that my Cambridge college owns enough land between the fens and London to be able to walk all the way on college property though 😉

I think you miss my point about parental concern. Our kids have worked hard all year. It comes to exam time and they are told they might not actually do exams or if they do they won’t be marked. How is that fair on them? How is that value for money? Worse if you are a final student looking at applying for graduate jobs. How are they going to approach employers, might they be disadvantaged? And how does that disadvantage advance the cause of the lecturers?

[TalkinPeace]

I assume new members have not been able to join for a while?
New members are still joining the DB scheme at the moment.

Currently everybody is in the DB scheme for all of their wages under £55k and then DC above that.

If the DB / DC cutoff dropped by - say - £2000 a year, everybody would have moved across in around 20 years - with the lowest earners protected for longest
but that sort of pragmatic approach does not seem to be on the table.

And students who will not get DB pensions in the private sector are unlikely to be sympathetic.

Very sneaky of the bosses.
Silly of the Unions to walk into the trap.

[hellsbells99]

DD2 has text me to say one of her modules is definitely cancelled on the strike days. This apparently affects her Monday and Wednesday timetable. She hasn't heard from others yet. The strikes could potentially impact her a lot as her course has workshops and labs. The other DD says she has been told they will be given 10 minutes notice of cancelled lectures! .....not sure how that will work. She has been told that end of year exams have already been set so will include all planned work.
That is assuming the exams go ahead www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/ucu-lecturer-strikes-exams-university-students-sally-hunt-compensation-damian-hinds-uss-universities-a8218386.html

[InDubiousBattle]

Hells same at the uni where dp is a lecturer. The meetings to finalise the exam questions have been and gone and I will include all planned course content.

[homebythesea]

talkinpeace thank you so much for that explanation. It makes more sense now. Unbelievable that a final salary scheme still exists for new members for all reasons previously discussed.

And as for projections I’m afraid I’m a little cynical valour anyone’s ability to predict the effect of innumerable variables over decades on any kind of pension fund

[homebythesea]

Most of us who are outside the final salary system make our contributions and frankly hope for the best!

[TalkinPeace]

homeby
In a DB scheme, the income is linked to your salary, not the stock market.
All of the risk is in the scheme, not for the pensioner.
Every single DB scheme is the same approach.
And there are lots and lots of DB schemes running both in the public and private sectors.

Strangely the bosses in companies seem to keep their own DB schemes healthy even when they trash the rights of employees
(as is the case at Carillion and Capita and British Steel and many more)

I'll bet in this instance that the VCs are not in the same scheme as the lecturers

[homebythesea]

I know that talkinpeace. I also know that in order to even get close to being able to pay out the funds need to be invested to grow. The lack of growth caused by political and economic factors means the fund is unsustainable for all members . Which is why most private sector final salary schemes have been closed to new entrants for many years. And legacy members are annually told there is a deficit.

My DH final salary scheme was with a partnership firm. Even if all the partners sold every last item they owned the shortfall would not be met. Where do people think the shortfall will come from? There’s a smaller cake to divide and not much in practical terms anyone can do about that.

[user369060]

Where do people think the shortfall will come from?

Those of us who work in Maths departments - and who actually work in actuarial work - do not accept that there is currently a significant shortfall. It could be dealt with via a tapering effect.

The sharp move from DB to DC is entirely for political reasons.

Most of us who are outside the final salary system make our contributions and frankly hope for the best!

But most people working in the private sector get paid considerably more for comparable qualifications. That's the real point - the very low pay in the academic sector has traditionally been balanced against stable employment and a decent pension scheme. Take away both and the conditions irrevocably change.

More to the point - academia and scientific research are global markets. The best people aren't sticking around for this rubbish when salaries/pensions are much higher elsewhere.

[LivLemler]

And as for projections I’m afraid I’m a little cynical valour anyone’s ability to predict the effect of innumerable variables over decades on any kind of pension fund

That's kinda the point of a pensions actuary's entire career. No one projection will get the answer right to the penny, obviously, but the whole point is to put together a sensible estimate so that a scheme can be appropriately funded.

So long as the contribution rate for benefits currently building up is sensible, there is no problem with new joiners.

And, again, this dispute is not about the deficit. The deficit is entirely manageable. It's about future benefits, where, again, a compromise agreement could've easily been reached.

Sometimes a move from DB to DC is the only sensible option, and can prevent an employer from going bust. That is not the case here.

[titchy]

Unbelievable that a final salary scheme still exists for new members for all reasons previously discussed.

It's a career average scheme for new joiners. Not final salary.

Not sure why you think it's unbelievable that DB schemes still exist - pretty much all public sector pensions are DB. That's the benefit you get for forfeiting a higher salary that you could have earned in the private sector. And has been very clearly explained here the scheme is not in deficit - it's Ox and Cam that are throwing their weight around (and having a significantly bigger say than any other university due to each college being regarded as a single employer).

[NomenOmen]

It’s not a final salary scheme any longer: that was closed to new members in 2011, and all members in 2016. It’s a defined benefit scheme now, with a cap at £55,000.

With the severe cuts to pension income which are being proposed, our employers run the risk of totally undermining the sector. It is seen as deferred pay, as UK academics are - compared to many European, North American, and Australian counterparts - “underpaid,” and the solid pension was always signalled as compensation in recognition of this. All this despite the fact that the UK seriously punches above its weight internationally despite being less well-funded than international competitors.

Most university academics are highly qualified, holding at least 3 degrees, and earn (often significantly) less than comparably trained professionals. Again, most accept this in part because the work done is highly vocational, and there was the promise of a secure retirement.

I was offered several jobs in the last year of my PhD, all earning more than I could earn even if I became a Professor. I chose to stay in academia because I love teaching and research, and because I thought I would have a decent retirement.

If I could turn back the clock I would tell my younger self to take the job. And I have vowed not to encourage any bright student of mine to enter academia in this country: better they seek more rewarding work elsewhere, or else trade their skills for their worth on the marketplace as I now bitterly wish I had done. If these cuts go ahead under the current proposal, there is almost certain to be a brain-drain from the sector as people choose to go abroad or not to enter the profession at all.

I am profoundly disillusioned and demoralised by all of this, and looking for ways to get out and increase my earning potential in order to provide for myself in the future. I’m sure I’m not alone.

The future for universities is an academic population composed of either a minority of religiously dedicated individuals who can’t imagine doing anything else and will accept the poor terms, etc (obviously our employers are banking on this), or, more worryingly, a much less competitive workforce of weaker candidates which will have serious consequences for the quality of research and teaching.

Oxbridge are pushing for these cuts, as a PP has said, and they have historically low membership of UCU (the striking union). In large part this is because a lot of Oxbridge academics are heavily cosetted from the realities of teaching outside their walls: in my subject, my counterparts in Cambridge do about 1/3 of the teaching I do at another (Russell Group) university; they also earn more than their counterparts in other universities (the Oxford collegiate system), or top up their salaries by thousands of pounds every year by supervising (so they are paid a basic salary like academics across the country, but earn between c.£25-40 an hour for every additional hour of supervision they do). Plus many colleges offer other financial incentives and perks.

I know that there are people reading this post who are thinking, “who cares?” as they earn less or don’t enjoy their work, etc. That’s fine, I get that. But a strong and flourishing university sector is a vital part of a successful culture and economy and devastating this will have wide-reaching consequences. People who dismiss this strike as the unreasonable demands of a privileged group better be careful what they wish for.

[Rejoiner]

Personally I am not sure I care about lecturers and their pension, as I think the fact that they have decided to strike now when students are working hard for their finals is despicable.

These are the same students that are taking on a huge debt to pay for their education.

I have been advising my DC and their peers to communicate with the VC and to ask what is going to be done for them if the lecturers can't be bothered to do their jobs.

It's not headline news because the students haven't been given the information. If they start to protest and demand a fee reduction maybe then someone will take note.

[homebythesea]

My bad - ive been lazily using the term “final salary”. I’m not sure the argument with regard to ability to pay unknowable amounts decades in the future change if it’s average salary, defined benefit or final salary basis of calculation.

A scheme which guarantees a retirement income is madness if you think about it. You tell someone on day one of their job, “I will pay you after you retire £X even though I have no idea how much that might be and when you might choose to retire and how many other people I might have to pay at the same time and regardless of any economic or political factors which may influence the growth of the fund”

[LivLemler]

Again, home, the contribution rates and investment strategies are set by actuaries - highly educated mathematicians qualified to make such judgements. The schemes are assessed every three years to check they are on course to have sufficient funds. Employers are obliged to make up any shortfall. It's not like the benefit is promised and everyone turns their back for 40 years.

And, again, the funding position isn't the issue here.

[NomenOmen]

Rejoiner: The timing of the strike is due to the conclusion of the schedule of meetings which were arranged to discuss the proposed changes (unsuccessfully).

It may be that your DC’s institution is making plans for assessments. My own School is guaranteeing students will not be affected by the strikes in terms of exams and assignments (which will be adjusted or marked to reflect missed content, etc).

Perhaps you might reflect on the fact that professionals - which I imagine you hope your DC to become on graduation - standing up for their pensions actually has a kind of futurity to it, signalling that we hope that working and retirement conditions will be favourable not only for us but for those who come after us (hint: your DC) in any profession and that we should not roll over and accept severely diminished contracts without a good fight.

[homebythesea]

I know employers are expected to meet the shortfall but they can’t payout from nothing!

[mrsrhodgilbert]

liv forgive me but I'm not going to mince words. I've spent all afternoon in hospital waiting for an appointment with my oncologist. I was diagnosed and treated when dd was doing her A levels, I'm immensely proud of her for getting through that hideous year. Here we are three years later and it looks like her final weeks at university could now be affected by circumstances beyond her control. It's absolutely my right as a parent to be worried about this and it is my business. She is 21 and by no means an experienced adult. She is, like most students at this stage, working silly hours to succeed and we are the calming voices on the end of the phone trying to be supportive. Four years ago I didn't think I would live to see her graduate and I'm incredibly upset at the thought of all this being for nothing. So, I asked about what might happen. I didn't expect students to answer but I didn't expect it to become dominated by the arguments for and against the strike. I thought other concerned parents might answer and some have but I still think it's still under the radar. For what it's worth she has messaged to say her lecturer won't be striking. As for marking essays and supervising her dissertation who knows. But don't tell me that I shouldn't be concerned about the young woman I've brought up.

[NomenOmen]

mrsrhodgilbert 💐 I wish you well with your treatment.

It won’t be for nothing, I assure you. Her department will almost certainly take steps to minimise or even avoid any impact of the strikes on the outcome of her degree (as my School is doing). And it’s possible that - without breaking the terms of the strike - her lecturers, etc will find other ways to ensure she doesn’t miss out. For example, I don’t intend to reschedule lectures, but I am planning a series of activities (which have taken a substantial investment of my time) which will bring all my students up to speed.

So far, all my students have been either supportive or apathetic about the strike and loss of teaching.

I absolutely do not want to do this. It makes me feel sick to be on the brink of taking this action. I love teaching and value enormously my good and cordial relations with students. But these proposals are just too much for us to sit back and allow them to happen without doing something.

[LivLemler]

Rhod - I hope your appointment went well today. My dad is currently in hospital recovering from major surgery from his third cancer, so I do understand the stress you and your family have been through, and of course you want the best for your daughter.

I do maintain that the over involvement of parents in university education (bar in situations where there are medical conditions, disabilities etc) is a Bad Thing.

There is just no way anyone won't graduate because of this strike. To think that universities will just send students on their way without a degree because of industrial action in one semester out of a three or four year degree is overly dramatic. Yes, there is likely to be disruption (that is afterall the point of a strike) but no one here can give you definitive answers as mitigation will vary between institutions and likely between schools within each university. Academics on the whole care about their students, and will see them right where possible - undermining their own position in the process! I'm not in the union and won't be striking - because I'm going on maternity in a few weeks and wouldn't have the chance to finish the material I need to teach.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Personally I am not sure I care about lecturers and their pension, as I think the fact that they have decided to strike now when students are working hard for their finals is despicable.

I'm not a striking lecturer (the strike only applies to some of us). And I admit I have scepticism about the effectiveness of these strikes, as there have been many strikes and talks of strikes in recent years, and they are invariably hamstrung by the fact we're not all eligible to strike and teaching is generally rearranged, whether or not that was the idea.

And I can see where people like mrsrhod are coming from in being primarily concerned about their children - because why wouldn't you be?!

But I can't help feeling there is a perception of lecturers as people who're relatively secure and financially well set-up, compared to students.

The period when I was a student was one of the most financially secure periods of my adult life. Yes, it was a loan. Yes, I knew I had to pay it back if I earned enough. But, I knew where it was coming from, and I knew it would keep coming for three years. Compare that to the situation of most postdocs (that's people who do an awful lot of the day-to-day teaching and supporting of students), and it's immensely less secure and stable. Many of us are paid what works out as below minimum wage, because we are on 'stipends' not salaries, or because we are not paid for time taken to prepare classes, or do the sort of support students often need. Many of us don't know where we'll be living next year or next month, because we have to go where the jobs are, and we expect to move multiple times.

I really care about my students. Some of mine have really serious difficulties and, for some of them, getting to graduate will be an enormous victory over their circumstances. I am so, so proud of them. I would estimate I have spent (at a conservative estimate) about 10 times as many billable hours on them as I'm paid for, because they need that support, and it takes time to chase student support and disability services and to arrange a taxi booking or find an accessible room or argue with another colleague who doesn't understand what's being required. I don't mind doing any of that.

But please don't go away thinking we're all lazy, uncaring types who can't remember what it's like to be a worried student. We all have a lot more in common with worried students than with that stereotype.

[NomenOmen]

Well said, LRD.

[user369060]

I have been advising my DC and their peers to communicate with the VC and to ask what is going to be done for them if the lecturers can't be bothered to do their jobs.

Academics have seen significant increases in workload since 2012, for very large reductions in their already low salaries. Many younger lecturers struggle to pay the rent in university cities such as Oxford and Cambridge. So at what point do you think it is reasonable for us to strike over continual decreases in pay and conditions? Why should we put up with this?

[user369060]

In large part this is because a lot of Oxbridge academics are heavily cosetted from the realities of teaching outside their walls: in my subject, my counterparts in Cambridge do about 1/3 of the teaching I do at another (Russell Group) university; they also earn more than their counterparts in other universities (the Oxford collegiate system), or top up their salaries by thousands of pounds every year by supervising (so they are paid a basic salary like academics across the country, but earn between c.£25-40 an hour for every additional hour of supervision they do). Plus many colleges offer other financial incentives and perks.

You are inaccurate here. In many subjects Oxbridge teaching is actually a lot heavier, due to the supervision load. And the pay isn't higher - the threshold for becoming a professor in Oxbridge is way higher than other RG universities, and a little bit of money from college teaching can't compensate for that. The money for college teaching really doesn't run into many thousands a year, for most academics.

Plus only the rich colleges give much of a package these days, in terms of providing cheaper rented accommodation or things like that.

And Oxford and Cambridge are incredibly expensive places to live, arguably worse than London in some respects, as there is no option to find something cheaper by living a bit further out.

Lecturers in Oxford and Cambridge often struggle to get by. Those employed directly by colleges as teaching fellows get really low salaries.

[user369060]

There is just no way anyone won't graduate because of this strike.

This ^^.

And mrshodgilbert I have cancer too. I have to teach after hospital treatment because nobody can cover specialised topics. If (when) I die, my children won't get much because my salary is low and payouts from the USS scheme are being cut.

Parents should remember that academics are parents too. The idea that we are "lazy" when we work ludicrous hours to support students for relatively low pay (given our qualifications) is deeply upsetting, particularly to academics in circumstances such as mine.