The upcoming strikes

[mrsrhodgilbert]

I have a dd in her third year at a university where there will be strike action for the next four weeks starting on Thursday. I've only been aware of this for a few days and I've seen nothing about it in the press. Dd doesn't yet know how it will affect her, she has one lecturer who covers her two modules this term and hasn't asked her if she will be striking. Literature from the university says they can ask their lecturers if they will be striking but the lecturer doesn't have to answer, so all a bit uncertain.

I'm just interested to know what your dc have been told if anything and what might happen re completing final modules without teaching and indeed if final exams could be cancelled. In that case what would happen?

[SoupyNorman]

University lecturers are not the on,y professionals with final salary pensions which won’t actually pay out

1. It’s not a race to the bottom
   

1. Academics don’t have final salary pensions anymore
   

1. The scheme has enough to pay out for the next 30 years without touching its capital reserves.

[Hefzi]

What will happen is what always happens with UCU strikes: people will lose pay for striking, and the union hierarchy will sell them out in the end.

OP, there have been threats over striking round exams/marking etc previously (anyone remember AUT as was?) but from memory, it's never actually happened that students haven't been able to graduate as a result. What is possible will depend on the specific regs of each individual university: I really doubt it will come to that - but suggest to your dd that she contacts the Registrar/Academic Registry and asks.

I technically have pensions with USS and TPS: we were shafted by TPS a few years ago, so I've been waiting for this hammer to fall...

[Bixg]

I work in HE and at my particular university there doesn't seem to be any information for students as yet - however Cambridge have published some information at www.cam.ac.uk/notices/news/strike-information-for-students; and Leeds at students.leeds.ac.uk/info/10100/academic_life/1122/ucu_strike.

I suppose that other uni's will follow the same sort of plan?

[homebythesea]

I thought all pension plans were subject to the whims of the stock market? And as for final salary funds being “deferred wages” - seriously? I would bet my house on some provision in the paperwork which means that the amount paid out is not in fact guaranteed. How on earth could any fund ensure it has down to the penny enough to pay out to all members? Please correct me if I’m wrong.

You don’t say how the deficit (and I see this is in itself disputed) will be rectified, I notice. How much needs to be paid in, where is this money coming from? Answers to this crucial point will enable an assessment of how likely it is that the aims of the strikers will be achieved in order to balance against the detriment of the students

[Merryhobnobs]

My husband is a lecturer and will be striking. I think they will be letting students know tomorrow and believe me he and others would far rather not have to resort to this. Personally it's going to hit us really hard financially if all the planned dates go ahead but it is necessary for our future.

[titchy]

I would bet my house on some provision in the paperwork which means that the amount paid out is not in fact guaranteed.

Of course it's guaranteed, at the point at which you take out the pension. That's kind of the definition of a DB scheme. They're pretty normal in the public sector - teachers, civil servants, NHS, Local Government. Any changes can only happen from the point at which they are agreed/forced on member - they can't affect prior contributions - which is fortunate for oldies like me, not so good for younger members with many years to go.

The actual changes proposed are that the DB scheme is done away with and replaced with a DC scheme where you get a pot when you retire with which to invest. Clearly no guarantee the pot will be worth anything, as it depends on stock market conditions when you retire.

[homebythesea]

Clearly no guarantee the pot will be worth anything, as it depends on stock market conditions when you retire. So like all other pension schemes.

If there wasn’t some small print about possible deficits in such funds this will become the biggest class action we have ever known in the years to come. I very much doubt there is absolutely no wriggle room in the small print as no-one can guarantee what happens to a pot of money paid out on the basis of unknown future salaries (which are themselves based on unknowable factors, economic and political) on the day the member signed up.

As we now know final salary schemes are madness in terms of being able to pay out so most are now closed, and legacy members (like my DH) are facing shortfalls. This change from final salary to contribution schemes has happened in most if not all other professions. It’s a fact of life. Unpalatable I grant you and disappointing.

I will ask again. What in practical terms do the strikers want to happen to achieve their “guaranteed” pension? How likely is this to transpire?

[TalkinPeace]

Soupy
Protecting future retirements = having a secure and decent pension. Not one subject to the whims of the stock market
Where exactly do you think the pension fund keeps its money?

And if you want to be angry with anybody, be angry with the man who abolished ACT (advance corporation tax) refunds for pension schemes and thus killed off the return rate on all big DB schemes
Gordon Brown to save you looking it up

The scheme has enough to pay out for the next 30 years without touching its capital reserves.
Yes but it will be paying out for at least 70 years.
Would you like to be age 90 and have your pension stop suddenly ?

[titchy]

Yes like most private schemes. But NOT like most public sector schemes.

The scheme was amended last year to address the deficit and the DB part of the scheme is now limited, and it's a career average rather than final salary scheme.

There is no reason for the remaining DB part of the scheme to be removed - it's only because Ox and Cam want the liability off their books so they can borrow cheaper.

[InDubiousBattle]

My dp is a lecturer (though will not be striking) and I honestly think that the answer to your question is 'they don't know'. They don't know how many staff will be striking. They are currently trying to intimidate both striking and non striking staff into basically making up any and all hours 'lost' due to the strike. The strike Acton is due to finish mid March so before exams. Currently marking won't be affected but at dp's uni content missed during g the strike will be included in the exams.

[LivLemler]

The measure of the scheme's finding position ranges from a deficit of £8bn to a surplus of £7.5bn (or thereabouts, too lazy to double check).

I completely accept that the scheme is in deficit, with gilt yields through the floor, most are. However, the deficit is small in proportion to the size of the scheme (the largest of its type in the UK) and entirely manageable.

Unusually, this dispute is nothing to do with the deficit, but the cost of benefits building up in the future.

This has increased since the last valuation, again chiefly because of low gilt yields.

It would have been entirely possible to reach a compromise whereby benefits were reduced to keep contributions at their current level. I would've been absolutely fine with that.

Instead, all DB accrual is stopping and everyone is being moved to DC for their future benefits, which is likely to result in a much lower income for the same contributions.

Many firms have taken this decision, it is the way things are moving and I accept that in most cases it's the only possible solution. That is absolutely not the case here.

[TalkinPeace]

Livlemler
Thank you for your analysis.

I have to admit that totally closing off the DB part for staff does seem extraordinarily harsh.
The upper DB limit could be fixed so that it effectively slides over time.
Or EES contribution rises could be pegged to ERS ones

But when VCs are helping themselves to stupid money salaries, shutting down the whole of the DB seems more than slightly short sighted.
DB schemes are doomed, but there are ways to mitigate the effect on current and future employees.
THis is not being handled well by bosses.

[dkb15164]

3rd year uni student here - even though my uni is part of strike, not 1 of my 4 lecturers are on strike. Gutted, would have loved a day off uni

[titchy]

I have to admit that totally closing off the DB part for staff does seem extraordinarily harsh

You've changed your tune talkin... Good.

[mrsrhodgilbert]

To those who have attempted to answer my questions thank you and to Bixg for that link to Leeds university. I'll point dd at it, she may have seen it already. She has enough going on at the moment without her mother bothering her about how the strike could affect her final few weeks and results. There's obviously a debate raging amongst the academics but the students could suffer significantly from this. That was what I was trying to get some information about as a concerned parent and maybe a little sharing of information from around the country. The thought that they could have their lectures and exams disrupted and dissertations unmarked after working hard is cause for concern.

[TalkinPeace]

titchy
I was given new evidence. I updated my position.

I still think that DB schemes are doomed and the benefits need to be curtailed I deal with the LGPS a lot
but slamming low paid workers across to DC is not a clever move

[InDubiousBattle]

It is op but in all honesty no lecturers want to disrupt students in this way. I'm sure every effort will be made to reduce any impact on final year students.

[mrsrhodgilbert]

Thanks. I'm inclined to think that this strike is pretty much under the radar for many parents. It's the sort of thing that would have this thread buzzing normally, instead it's the academics who have jumped on it.

[homebythesea]

Yes it's harsh to change pension arrangements, especially where those pension "entitlements" coloured your decision to take the job in the first place. But for younger staff they will have accrued benefits plus the fruits of many years contributions to a pension scheme for the duration of their career. The only scenario in which they will "lose £300k" (quoted by a lecturer of my DS) is if they make no further retirement provision for themselves for the next 40 years (or whatever).

Yes contribution schemes are at the mercy of markets, political and economic factors which are currently unknowable. Just in the same way that on the day they were promised a "guaranteed" proportion of their final salary as a pension the funds available, number of other claimants and the level of salaries were unknowable.

[homebythesea]

Text from DS: "We have been told that any lecture material not being taught because of a striking lecturer won't be included in the exams".

Also: "we are being used as pawns and a bargaining tool which is completely unfair. We pay to learn and deserve to be taught"

[LivLemler]

homebythesea - the £200k loss quoted is the difference between the scheme continuing as it currently is, and the move to DC for all benefits. It is a significant difference (especially in families like ours where both earners are affected!).

OP, with respect, I understand your concern, but it's nothing to do with parents. University students are adults, this isn't a teachers' strike. I suspect that's why the conversation here has focused on the issues behind the strikes - there are presumably more academics than students on MN.

[homebythesea]

Liv no-one can predict how much their pension fund will be worth at the date of retirement (which will depend on amount of contributions over many decades and other variables) so where does that figure come from? I get that it is a concern for you and your colleagues.

I have repeatedly asked how the strikers want this detriment to be alleviated in practical terms and I'm not sure I've seen an answer. Until we know that it is impossible for us to know whether this action is proportionate and will result in the ends required.

And as parents who contribute an awful lot out of taxed income to support our student children it is I think of interest if we are concerned about the investment we have made in our children in order for them to get a degree.

[user369060]

I have repeatedly asked how the strikers want this detriment to be alleviated in practical terms and I'm not sure I've seen an answer.

Actuarial analysis shows that it is NOT necessary to move entirely to DC. A compromise would be to lower the threshold for crossover from DC to DB from the current threshold of ~55k to e.g. ~40k. The senior management are not negotiating basically because Oxbridge wants out, so they can get better rates for borrowing.

The senior management are bullying staff into accepting the decision - one that was actually supported by a minority of universities in the vote in November - under the assumption that the public won't support them. MN seems to support that view.

homebythesea - the whole point of university education is that students are facilitated to study at high level. Most of the study is meant to be independent study, particularly in the final year of university. If you seriously think that the loss of several contact hours over a three year period will substantially affect your student children, then the degrees they are doing are not worth having.

[TalkinPeace]

homebythesea
no-one can predict how much their pension fund will be worth at the date of retirement (which will depend on amount of contributions over many decades and other variables) so where does that figure come from?
If you are in a DB scheme and are on a pay scale its incredibly easy to put those numbers into one of the calculators that the schemes provide and work out your pension to within about 3%

My LGPS one will be £1150 per year index linked from my retirement till death and then half that for DH until his death

[LivLemler]

home it will have been calculated by an actuary.

For the current scheme, they will have made an assumption about the age of the typical lecturer they're considering, how their salary will evolve and what inflation will do. They use that to estimate a projected pension at retirement, and then estimate how that pension will increase with inflation. They will then add the income over the estimated post retirement lifetime. This will then be calculated in today's terms, allowing for future investment returns.

To estimate the value of the DC benefits, they will again use the same estimate of future salary, and model the proposed % contribution being invested. The available find at retirement will be estimated, and the pension that could buy through an insurance company calculated.

Obviously there are many assumptions to be made here, and as the number has been calculus on behalf of the union they will have sought to maximise the difference. However, the actuary is professionally bound to use appropriate and consistent assumptions.

To say the difference is six figures is not unreasonable, and this will be higher for younger academics as the changes will affect them for a longer period of time.